Cm Sf2

[Wodin]

Very excited about the ne wCM announcements. Infact I've never known an annoucement thats so gobsmacking.

Anyway as someone who isn't really into Modern Warfare but bought CMSF on a whim and really enjoyed it (ended up buying the Marine and Brit modules aswell) I have to say I'm about as excited for the new SF game set in the Ukraine as I am about the East front game.

Nato vs Russia!

Playing CMBN I really missed all those modern toys more than I ever imagined I would.

Can't wait.

[WriterJWA]

Me too! I've been playing some "old" CMSF scenarios and I'm definitely ready for the second iteration of modern warfare! If I read the post correctly, I suspect we'll be able to play older NATO v. WP-era OOBs, which will be awesome. Even if that's not true, the idea of fighting with modern forces in a European environment offers a heck of a lot of challenges! Can't wait!

Although ... I'd love to play a CM game where I could replicate a Fulda Gap-esque battle with an ACR against Soviet armored columns!

[Chainsaw]

same here. Im redoing all the CMSF campaigns right now after getting bored with WW2, so CMSF2 gonna be kickass!

[Sakai007]

I am pumped for CMSF:2!!! Really think this will be my favorite for a while after, just can't get better the good old NATO vs. Russia!!!

[plau011]

Will be nice to have a conventional war in CMSF and not a war where you are forced to keep Blue's casualties low.

From what I understood it's going to be modern forces, not 80s forces, but still all good.

[Phantom Captain]

Where exactly are the new announcements about SF2 and the East Front, can't seem to find them!

[WriterJWA]

Here ya go!

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=104854

[Phantom Captain]

Thanks! Don't know why I missed it!

[Apache]

Quite looking forward to CMSF 2. I liked CMSF and NATO but have to say I found the running around with a modern military force but ducking from uncons with ATGMs a bit tiresome to be honest. I prefer conventional warfare (albeit the appearance of some Syrian units did up the ante somewhat in CMSF). I also don't like desert settings much to be honest.

[Erwin]

"...not a war where you are forced to keep Blue's casualties low." I will be surprised if that requirement changes. It's been that way since after Vietnam.

[LongLeftFlank]

Agreed. The West's aversion to shedding large amounts of its citizen soldiers' blood would change only in the event of an existential threat, bringing violence to our shores in a sustained way (i.e. it would take more than a one-off terrorist attack, even a WMD).

[Apache]

I'm quite happy keeping blue casualties down. I try to in CMBN. What I found tiresome to some degree with CMSF is having this vast array of kit only to find you were barely able to use it to its full capability most of the time given that your opponent was mostly civilians armed with ATGMs across vast expanses of ATGM friendly wide open desert. It may well be an accurate representation of current conflicts but interesting, for me, mostly, no. Others MMV.

I'd rather face a similarly equipped opponent across greener terrain (Europe for instance) and at least feel that I was about to engage such an opponent rather than tracking down yet another bloody RPG in some derelict but conveniently strategic hut.

[Erwin]

There were some pretty intense scenarios and operations in which one had to use "all the kit". I especially liked some of the Red vs Red ops as a great trainer for Red capabilities and how to handle Blue forces.

[JMFC]

There are two Blue Force fixes I'd like to see in CMSF2. When a platoon leader gets in his Bradley, he should occupy the vehicle commander (VC) seat. Too often, I've noticed that a HQ inside a Bradley sees a target, but the actual Bradley gunner can't see the same target. This is not realistic since the VC is physically right beside the gunner. Target handoff is even better with the M2A3 with Commander's Independent Viewer (CIV). Now the commander can target designate and slew the turret for the gunner.

I have also noticed a Blue-on-Blue problem when calling for airstrikes. Then direction of attack sometimes occurs in line with the observer which can result in strafing friendly units. If using a JTAC or other trained observer, the player should be able to indicate the direction of attack (typically perpendicular to the observer's location) in order to prevent fratricide.

[Stagler]

About the casualties, I think in a conventional fight between NATO and Russia, the casualties would never be low. Dont forget it wont be no syrian mechanised unit in BMP1s blindly driving forward with no target acquisition skill and less morale, with the odd piece of equipment or IED to worry about when playing your mission.

It will ALL be BMP3Ms and T90MS with thermal sights efficiently engaging your exposed Bradleys and M1s from far away. Covered all the time by the Russian propensity to saturate the area with fires and aviation missions before a breakthrough attack.

[LongLeftFlank]

Which is why the backstory is going to need to be fairly carefully crafted.

In the absence of an existential threat to the West itself, there's just no way IMHO a Western expeditionary force intervening in a Ukraine civil conflict is going to be authorized to initiate a bloody stand-up fight against Russian mech forces. And the Russians wouldn't attack unless confident of inflicting a humiliating defeat and forcing the exit of the meddlesome West; i.e. the odds very much in their favour.

But even under those conditions, you aren't going to get more than a couple of battles before a disengagement and cease fire is ordered. And we now return you to your previously scheduled asymetrical / proxy war against well-armed Russian partisans bent on ethnic cleansing. Either that or WWIII has now broken out and nukes are flying, in which case you get Twilight 2000 Redux: Beyond Thunderdome

[Stagler]

Im sure a sufficiently believable backstory could be crafted, it might not even be the US anyway. Something akin to the NATO module might be the first western forces in CMSF2.

The UK, Germany, France and Poland maybe? They would act before the US to an existential threat to Europe from Russia.

[LongLeftFlank]

This was my earlier suggestion: no Prokhorovka II / Fulda mass carnage here, but plenty of possibilities for sharp internecine clashes at the battalion scale in a screwed up fight where it really isn't clear who the good guys are. And, e.g. you can get French turning their guns on US or German/Polish/Ukrainian forces. Just like in Beirut 1982 where you nearly had US and Israeli forces coming to blows, or Mogadishu where the Italians and Pakistanis wouldn't lift a finger to help the US troops, whose high-handedness had offended them.

Or you could always do alternative history and do the CMSF version of "Twilight 2000" RPG; the original setting was a group of 25th ID survivors wandering about post-nuclear Poland.

Also, I believe the setting for CMSF2 was supposedly Ukraine, not Georgia.

That setting is not too hard to believe -- a plausible backstory for a campaign could go something like this....

Germany leaves the Euro and EU in disgust amid world recession in 2013 and forms a rival bloc -- say Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, and Czecho. Relations with the remaining EU deteriorate quickly, although Britain, the US, the Nordics, Switzerland, Turkey and the Baltics are friendly to the new Zollverein. NATO remains intact but an increasingly disunited and impotent talking shop. And no, there's no appetite for military conflict -- I don't personally find that plausible.

Meanwhile, Putin sets out to reassemble the Slavic portion of the Soviet Union; Belarus quickly declares economic and military union, but his machinations in the Baltics are resisted, and the Germans and Poles back the Balts. Violence erupts -- Russia threatens intervention; the EU sponsors talks although they are suspected of being pro-Russian.

Ukraine. You figure out which caused which:

1. Russian populations in Crimea and east of the Dnpr agitate for their "human rights". 2. The Kyiv government draws increasingly close to the German bloc; some might even say, dependent

Bottom line: sectarian violence erupts here too in short order.

2016. Ethnic cleansing escalates in the Donbas and Crimea, including districts that never had Russian majorities before. The Ukrainian army performs poorly against well-armed Russian irregulars and the tottering government becomes increasingly dependent on German bloc aid, including "Polish" advisers and arms. Tension increases on the Belarusian frontiers; the Russians accuse the Poles of seeking to recover Lviv and Lublin.

Russian minorities scattered throughout western Ukraine begin to face revenge persecution by Ukrainian extremists who have lost patience with Kyiv. An especially gruesome massacre occurs in Odessa; the Russian navy "quarantines" the port, indignantly threatening to land. Open war now looms, although both sides shy away from that fateful step, preferring to fuel their war by proxy.

In a desperate UN-brokered effort, a peacekeeping force (UNPROFOR), including French, Italian, Hungarian, Brazilian, Egyptian, as well as an Anglo-American regimental team (US and British Royal Marines, plus a Stryker battalion?) included at Ukrainian insistence land in the strife-torn city to enforce a cease fire. At Russian insistence though, only the French are permitted to ship in heavy armour*, and the UNPROFOR commander is French. The Ukrainian Army agrees to withdraw its heavy weapons from the UN area of operations, and the Russian Navy to return to port.

As UNPROFOR deploys into Odessa and the surrounding countryside (Transnistria, the lower Dnpr), the Anglo-American commanders quickly become suspicious of the motives of their EU colleagues. They also become aware that the Ukrainians are hell bent on rearming and retaking their lost lands, and need the US nuclear umbrella to do that. And if that means ensuring that Leathernecks and Bootnecks come into conflict with Russian "terrorists" then, well, so be it....

Anyway, you get the idea. The chess pieces are on the table. I guess you'd be disappointed if you're looking for the massed clash of Russian and US tank brigades refighting Prokhorovka, but this backstory provides plenty of opportunity for dramatic tactical actions between ersatz combat groups on a reasonably equal footing.

Also, it's really not clear who are the good or bad guys here -- the Russians have legitimate gripes too.