Paper Tiger Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 There's a thread on Spotting currently active and the reporter of the issue found that if he reduced the unit's experience to Green, the spotting worked more the way he expected it too. Perhaps there is a problem with the REGULAR experience level inasmuchas the values are probably a tad too high? This may not just be about Spotting but mortar accuracy as well as off-board artillery accuracy. And the number of first-shot hits from tanks firing on targets would decrease as well. I think the numbers we currently have for GREEN would be better for the REGULAR experience, or perhaps somewhere between where the two presently are. The game really does just get silly when you start playing with VETERAN and CRACK or ELITE units. :eek: Thoughts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Could be. There were many people who felt that using Green and Conscript troops led to much more realistic results in the CMx1 games as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Some testing would be interesting with this.... I still love having my excellent troops -but I found now I like having more regulars with a few special squads or tanks that I use when I find my main axis of advance, or my enemies.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Not sure about this. I would definitely like to see reduced spotting ability, but green troops break to easily to mount any kind of attack. I have tried using green mortars, FOs and IiRC it just made them less accurate but the tight pattern still happened. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Actually, the US troops should be green for the most part (unless the unit fought in North Africa -- or has been engaged in Normandy for several weeks). This was another reason why figuring out how to get tanks into the bocage battles, and also how to better use small mortars, was so important -- the infantry just didn't have the experience to tackle such horrible terrain on their own. Also, the green infantry needed to be trained in working with tanks, which they weren't when they arrived in Normandy. You could make a similar observation about much of the German forces, at least in the first days after the invasion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Lots of + Paper Tiger. I mentioned in another thread how Broadsword uses experience, morale and fitness to reflect the overall condition of our units in creating scenarios from the op layer of our game. It not only adds to the immersion factor, but also has made me keenly aware of how far I can push my units or not. I absolutely agree that if folks are finding their units to be far better than they expect, they need to start messing with these. Having fresh, well rested, fit, well experienced units in every battle is extremely divergent from what commanders had/have to face and frankly is gonna get boring. Try that same defence with tired or exhausted troops and see how brittle they are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [My ears are burning...] After following this discussion, I'm thinking I may have to start using "Green" more often. I had been using "Regular" for green and un-blooodied units of the 35th "Santa Fe" Division, because I thought "Green" in CMBN meant troops with little to no training, more on a par with Hiwis, Ostbattalions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [My ears are burning...] After following this discussion, I'm thinking I may have to start using "Green" more often. I had been using "Regular" for green and un-blooodied units of the 35th "Santa Fe" Division, because I thought "Green" in CMBN meant troops with little to no training, more on a par with Hiwis, Ostbattalions. My Landser would be quite happy to see that I think that last battle where I had troops that were already pretty tired though was really interesting. Tactics that I had used previously would not work with them, they just didn't have the stamina to play hide and seek very well. Part of the reason I felt the decison we ended up having to make when the game stopped running was correct was because I knew how little fight they had left in them. Though I did spring a couple good ambushes there before we ran into the dreaded- "sorry your pbem is not gonna run anymore" syndrome. Hard to believe that was last year already, dang do I ever miss this game. For those frustarted with various items not functioning how you think they should or what you consider to be buggy behavior...try setting the game down for a few months, I would almost kill for a chance to have time for another round. Not really, but I would definitely consider withholding ice cream, be it chocolate, vanilla or even Choc chip mint, but then that wouldn't really be punishment.. Steve I hope you don't have an analogy that refers to the MG module as Choc chip mint, I would be deterred from buying it.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have been testing green troops and I gotta say they work much more like I would expect real troops to behave. They don't have the instant spotting that regular and vet troops have. And they don't break nearly as quick as I thought as long as I don't do stupid things with them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Yeah. That's been my experience with Green troops too. The breaking is more a result of their morale setting. I suspect Green troops with Normal morale break a tad easier than Normal experience troops with Normal morale but it's easy enough to sculpt your forces in the editor. BTW, I wanted to make the 2/8 INF in the Montebourg campaign Green troops but chickened out. In fact, a lot of the private testing was done with Green troops. However, I took the plunge with the US units in 'Buying the Farm'. Both the US and German forces were Green and I liked the way the battle felt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnulf Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Not sure about this. I would definitely like to see reduced spotting ability, but green troops break to easily to mount any kind of attack. I have tried using green mortars, FOs and IiRC it just made them less accurate but the tight pattern still happened. That sounds fine. Once a mortar is bedding in and then dialled in it will fire in the same direction each time (with wind and slight baseplate shift creating the spread). So green would mean they were less accurate in aiming the mortar, but once the weapon was set then it would be right or wrong fairly consistently until the fire mission is adjusted. Green troops would be unlikely to mean they would spray and prey with a mortar in the same way as they would with a MG or rifle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Well, this will be an interesting test of asymmetrical soft factors, make of it what you will: The battle now set up in my op-tac campaign, about to be played out: Germans: Fitness unfit/weakened, Experience: Veteran, Motivation: Low, Leadership -2. Americans: Fitness weakened/fit, Experience: Green, Motivation: Normal, Leadership: +2. Given that the American battalion outnumbers the German around 3:1 in this battle and have light and heavy tank companies in support plus a full 105mm battalion offmap, I'd bet on the Americans winning. Oh, and they have the better terrain, attacking downhill from Hill 108 into a hard-to-defend valley. But... The German battalion gets some assets too (some 88s, a Stug company, sniper teams) to make it interesting. And while the Americans have to secure and hold a 280m x 280m victory location, the Germans need only inflict enemy casualties over 40 percent. I'm never quite sure how these sorts of battles will turn out. The battle odds on a boardgame map look so much cleaner and more predictable than the chaotic, 3D apocalypse they become once the red "start" button sets them off in CMBN... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'm going to disagree here about the usefulness of Green troops. They go to ground and cower way too quickly to be useful in either an attack or a defense. On the other hand, I find Normal troops with +0 morale to be a good balance between maintaining their composure and going to ground when things get too hot. Green troops, in the context of CMBN, means troops that are not properly trained for combat. I think too many people read accounts of "green troops" in accounts of WWII and instantly think that means the same in CMBN, which IMO it does not. While many American troops that landed in Normandy lacked combat experience, I think it's fair to say they had been properly trained for their task. Thus, in the context of the game, this is how I correlate CMBN's skill levels to real-world examples (some of which obviously aren't modeled yet in the game): Conscript: Volksturm Green: Ost Battalions, Luftwaffe Infantry Regular: standard German and American infantry formations with no or little prior combat experience, but have received adequate combat training. Veteran: Paratroopers (both sides). Standard German and American units with prior combat experience. Crack: "special" troops, such as German snipers Elite: the best of the best, i.e., the Michael Wittmans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveP Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Conscript: Volksturm Green: Ost Battalions, Luftwaffe Infantry Regular: standard German and American infantry formations with no or little prior combat experience, but have received adequate combat training. Veteran: Paratroopers (both sides). Standard German and American units with prior combat experience. Crack: "special" troops, such as German snipers Elite: the best of the best, i.e., the Michael Wittmans. Here's a contrasting view: Conscript: minimal or no training Green: training but no battle experience Regular: some battle experience Veteran: more than one battle/significant mission experience Crack: born to be soldiers, take to it like ducks to water Elite: Crack with specialist skills 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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