Huba

True, but since we strive on this board to put something better than common misconceptions, his obvious silly post-Prussian biases he showed numerous times demand some reply. Since he likes to use very categorical judgments regarding nations of Central Europe (and anybody else too he considers untereuropeans) let's unpack "EU funded Polish armaments and that's all" argument:
 
-Budget assets in PL for 2023 are 97 bln of zl. It raised dramatically compared to previous year where it was ca.65 bln. Obviously domestic assets.
-Another ca.50 bln comes from Fund For Support of Military- a new entity outside of budget constrains created as consequence of Russian agression, including bank investments with state capital, obligations, off-sets with foreign contractors and similar. Significance of this entity will raise in next years. So it is chiefly financed due to debt on various state assets that Polish citizens will be paying off for decades; one may think of it as morgage on giant scale.
https://defence24.pl/przemysl/rosnie-zadluzenie-funduszu-wsparcia-sil-zbrojnych
- European Peace Facility alias EPF (which itself is made of various European assets and debts, including its Eastern members- there are dozens of initiatives there, like helping Nigerian Forces, that do not correspond to situation in UA too) is chief fund here; up to 3.6 bln of euro in 7 tranches were used to refurbish member's states assets given to Ukraine, and that includes ammo, trainings of UA soldiers and other things that directly do not increase our combat capabilities.
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2023-07-10/eu-war-chest-success-and-uncertain-future-european-peace
Note: time was of essence then even more than money itself during crucial first year of the war; many western states behind the curtain put cross on Ukraine, so were clearly unwilling to give up their assets due to various subjective and objective reasons. Countries of Eastern Flank- chiefly Balts and PL- gave up up to 30% of their stuff. I is also not true it was all post-Soviet:we have new weapon systems given or sold on credit, like Krabs, Topaz, Piorun, Bohdana  etc. that blow Russians pretty nciely until today. This process left us (mind you- frontier countries) almost bare in various areas like artillery ammo in the face of revanchist Russia, that threatened daily and used hybrid warfare against PL and Lithuania. This situation should last up to circa 2027-30 when new assets should be here in appropriate numbers.
So how much compensation PL gained from this fund? By march 2023  it was 300 mlns euro, with expectation for another 5-600 mlns according to PM words; let's believe him (I wouldn't and he almost surely infated this, but skip it for sake of argument), it should gave us 900 mln euro, or ca. 4,5 blns of zloty according to recent course*. In other words, EU help consist of maximum something like 3-4% of country total yearly military expeditures. Behold terrying Red Dragon!

Overall entire argument "we give money so shut up" is, like everything that our dear @Aragorn2002 writes: a mix of power phantasies, personal biases, and lack of basic understanding of economy.
*Note, that this includes training, ammo and accomodating UA soldiers (various estimates, but probably more than brigade size at any given time from late 2022) as well as running training grounds with allied soldiers, not solely new equipment. We can be sure there are also various long-term military deals being made in this extraordinary situation, but their overall quota is unknown for now.
Now it is true that countries of Eastern Flank are main beneficiaries of the help- but it is also true they were main benefactors for UA in crucial time and hold the line against Russia, apart from UK and USA ofc. About other issues curcial to UA survival- like diplomatic offensive vs. doom and gloom of some western partners, only embassy working in Kyiv during hardest time, milions of refugees taken care off, unrelentless moral support for UA (still important and showed on the streets by people most interested here- Ukrainian civilians and veterans), chief hub for this entire tragedy and various other things I will not even speak of. But hey: Morawiecki provoked by Zelensky in UN said something stupid, over long-time difficult issue, in the middle of elections he soon nuanced anyway, western media outlets raised histeria to absurd levels and out of a sudden PL is "not reliable ally thinking only about themselves" versus Russia. I could punch curent government by hours if you like, but  let's try to keep proportions here, gentlemen.
 

I don't think think they consider the near obliteration of the Russian army to be a negative. You have to give the Poles a lot of credit for the first three months, when they had ten percent or more of Ukraines population at least pass through, and it went as well as it possibly could have done. They sent a lot of stuff early as well, when a lot of other countries wee dithering rather badly. Having said all of that, the Polish Government has certainly tried to manage the war as whole to their advantage where possible. Obviously they like E.U. money, and they have certainly gotten quite a bit of it. They wanted U.S. forces based in Poland, they got that too. All in all I still think the balance sheet of the Polish Government is nicely in the black in regard to how they have handled Ukraine, although the grain tiff certainly hasn't impressed anybody.
The problem with the the current Polish Government is, well, everything else. Their domestic policy on any number of matters, their relations with the EU on everything except Ukraine, The whole mess with the independence of the courts, and on, and on. 
I just happen to think that the best way to deal with them is to do everything possible to help Ukraine, and reinforce NATO's eastern flank. Once the Russian Bear is firmly back in its cage perhaps they will discover how grateful voters can be, sort like Churchill did.

Ukrainians now have domestic drones that can hit Russian power grid - which will not have Patriot protecting it and bunch of donated generators from EU propping it up. If they were smart, they would not dare touch Ukrainian power grid.
Of course if the Russians were smart, we would not be reading this very thread.

Traditionally, very englightening post about this short drama.

 
Meanwhile, in real world - one of Russian "peacekeepers" killed in Karabakh was deputy commander of submarines of Norther Fleet. Odd place for such a guy.
https://www.rferl.org/a/top-russia-navy-officer-killed-azerbaijan-nagorno-karabakh/32602846.html
Thanks. Unfortunatelly, their stocks does not seem to be near to ending.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2023/08/29/russia-hoards-missile-stocks-as-it-prepares-for-major-autumn-strike/
I am curious if the fact that UA now has its own small drones and missile can change the dynamic of Russia's own airstrikes on Ukrainian soil this winter; will it be so dramatic like last one? 2022/23 they attacked with total impunity according to (it seems) pre-planned schedule; now just gathering planes on airfields by muscovites seem to pose a danger. Even airfields quite deep into Mother Russia itself could theoretically be targeted by a team with some IKEA-made cartoon bomblet. That means longer route for missiles and subsequently more time to prepare the answer.
 

Interesting possibilities:
South Korean newspaper editorial:
https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2023/09/06/2023090601594.html
 
And I bet South Korea's own sanctions against Russia would be ramped-up significantly.

Partly it is obviously the case. However, there is so many interconnected interests and odd theatricity (on both UA and PL sides) connected to this issue that it starts to stinks from a far, like "who blown NS2" case. Given previously extremely cordial relations between presidents, and very uncharacteristic calmness of Duda in this situation, there is even theory now that it is agreed between both governments to do a little public tantrum as a favour due to elections...sounds crazy, but we already saw many similar odd, unresolved cases during those 2 years (like NS2 case). A lot of things is going here under the carpet we know little about.
Also, don't take Morawiecki by his words, basically never. First, it was cut out of context and they were hardly such dramatical if somebdoy know polish and way of talking of our current PM (like unfortunatelly often happens in many western media outlets lately...). Second, he lies, as always - don't worry, I am pretty sure PL will continue its military support on multiple levels (if some stuff is still left in warehouses). Here @Huba is unfortunatelly right- expecting state in election fever to behave normally is like asking woman just about to give birth to stop showing off herself.
 
Also addendum to Kadyrov saga- alive and well, here praying on the bad of his uncle, Magomet. Maybe it was not this Kadyrov that SBU informed about?

Yeah, I have not seen any election predictions but I really hope you all succeed at getting rid of these guys, whether soon or in years.

PiS is aiming at stealing some votes from the far(er) right before the October elections, and there isn't a single thing in the world not worth sacrificing on this altar. Shameful, to say the least.

PiS is aiming at stealing some votes from the far(er) right before the October elections, and there isn't a single thing in the world not worth sacrificing on this altar. Shameful, to say the least.

I guess some of us hoped that the war will help Poland to wake up and become something else than Hungary-aligned force always doing the wrong thing and always trying their best to destroy EU from within. To shake off PiS and become something more. It is obvious now it was too good to be true.
When crisis comes, people don't change for the better, they become more of what the were before.

What air defenses? ;D
Apperently, there's less and less of them. BBC was pretty quick to report the local (my hometown) events, so you may wanna check that out.
No air raid warnings, no nothing. Nothing is happening, as always. Just bavovna and smoke. Even the announcer at the train station skips the usual "be observant and careful, careful and observant" this morning. How come, I wonder?
 
ps: I'm okay, and the windows are fine, for now.

Yeah, you know, if somebody has breathtaking ambitions to lead humanity into entirely new ways of communciating, safe travelling and space colonization, he perhaps should take into account that his own private business will likely clash with public needs rather often. I have little doubts which should take precedence in normal, rules-driven order. Even in global village people prefer to think of themselves as coherent societies, not some peons whithout agenda.
Nobody forced him to make a fortune specifically in (and of) grey zone between these two spheres, only his own ego and ambitions drove him there.
 

It's not a mist of suspicions....Musk has quite clearly demonstrated that he will take his own interests into account before any national interest. He has actively promoted the idea that Ukraine should surrender territory to Russia and that Taiwan should submit to the PRC. Elon Musk is *not* our friend. 

I ran this through the bull**** translator:
"Ukraine fired something at us, we thinks it was a missile. No one really noticed anything until the fireball went off. We hope our ship can be recycled at some point but it's hard to see through the flaming drydock."

I meaned more Imeprial Roman army, when the "model" professional force was created that Europe could only start to race with to maybe in late XVII century.
You are right on both points, however I was more writing on societal perception that loves to crash nature vs. culture, in typical ritual of reasserting itself as "civilized", rather than actual hitsorical realities. This struggle is one of central themes of any developed societies; in fact, one of our "great stories"- we visibly see it in normal world reaction to Russian invasion of Ukraine, too. We like to support UA not only because we feel empathy for victims and want to keep our order intact, but also we want the civilization to triumph over barbarity in deeper sense; let's call it mythical one.
In fact a lot of my collegues in academia (Classical history background) hate this division between effective disciplined soldier vs. unruly but brave barbarian, since it was very often simply untrue and blurring our perception:
https://www.amazon.com/Glory-Rome-History-Warriors-Warfare/dp/1473898765
(quite interesting and accessible, book that attempted to shatter our vision of Roman soldiers as "killing machines", if somebody is interested).
Plus even sole ability of framing of war in purely political context, that organized states were always better at; in other words: "destilling" means to achieving ways. "Tribal" or "feudal" warfare often even lacked very clear goals, not to mention measures of efectivness (btw. the word efectivness itself  does not exist in our sense up to maybe late XIX century, if not later). A lot of it could come also from lack of adequate ways to memorize and reapeat "cause->effect" chain. I wouldn't like to primitivize our ancestors too much ofc., sometimes they were able to learn surprisingly fast. But often they did not, and various military (organzational, technical and tactical) discoveries were reinvented and forgotten time and again. Which leads us to another fascinating discussion, namely how much inventions, reaction and learning in warfare pre-modern and not very litterate sociaties were capable of, but it is different topic.
100% this.
Generally the problem with "embracing modern warrior" in our societies is they are terribly massive, disjoined and overspecialized, much more than those barely 100 years ago. It is not even question of violence and lack of tolerance for it (this can be circumvented by various cultural agendas, some of them not pretty- like for example nationalism) but rather our lack of societal cohesion as a whole- I mean in  globalized "capitalistic" states that share roughly similar republican values. We simply lack this almost organoleptic feeling of presence of others from the same tribe, therefore we lack understanding for more developed warrior ethos.

The_Capt, if you want to talk we want to listen. As I have said before we REALLY appreciate getting to audit staff college without  the push-ups, or the paper work.

This aligns well with the west titrating support to Ukraine to avoid escalation and not really wanting to defeat Russia. Only time will tell if that view is correct. But at least voters should know what the end result would look like while not giving away state secrets. US leadership can't put two sentences together. John Kirby might be the only grown up in DC now. He is professional and making a name for himself. 

What he said, Ukrainians have reached the point where they can stand and fire in whole batteries.

No. Each UKR soldier will tell you, that BTR-70 is a piece of sh...t in comarison with M-113/YPR-765
BTR-60/70/80 have too weak side hull armor, which can't maintain proper protection from 7.62 and often against 5.45 AP from close range, when M113 protects. Inner compartment of BTRs is too narrow for soldiers in modern equipment and body armor, because both and BTR and BMP series were designed in ColdWar era, when soldiers haven't such equipment and in design was put an avarage height of Soviet soldier in 1960-1970 as about 160-165 sm, this is one more answer, why RUS and UKR soldiers ride on the top of armor. Not only because if it hit, all will burn alive (it's enough exaggregation if it not 125 mm HE), but because of full squad of troops will waste value time, trying to disembark from narrow compartment under fire. So, UKR soldiers always ride inside M113 to enemy positions, because it much safer, and disembark time is much shorter, than from inside BTR-70
Enclosed turret of BTRs doesn't give enough protection, but instead strict natural LOS of gunner. M113/HMMMWV guneer can better to observe battlefield, when he gets targeting from comamnder or spot the target himself. 
One guy from "Azov" NG brigade wrote brigade try to get at least several dozens of M113 and he amazed, why it so hard. Even 3rd assault briagade "Azov", using M113/YPR, as he told indeed have very small of them and all M113, which you can see in their videos are the same several APC. 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1696838128529502456.html
That was faster than expected 
 

A testament to the quality of this thread:
it took 2814 pages before the subject of racism popped up. That must be a worldrecord for any thread on any forum these days.

She has a long memory this old dear. 103? I would give her 75.
 
 

There was an addendum to the range safety lecture, "Packing everyone into this barn for a range safety lecture is going to get us all killed..."

The fact that the vehicles are still in column suggests to me that the engines of each one is toast. If my engine was still operable, I suspect someone would have taken the place of any dead or wounded drivers and driven away, even with the flat tires.