Armorgunner

Sorry for spaming I just dont have mush time. And when I have some. Its like this Edit: I know a few, that wanted the M1 to be the new tank. For different reasons ( Army ones, Not political ) But it had to do with different prioritising, of what was the best thing to prioritize at the time.

translation: Low Score is better. Rörlighet=Mobility Verkan=Effect Överlevnadsförmåga=survivability Ledning=C2 Drif & underhåll=maintenance This was the final verdict This was the final score of the competition between the last contenders. And to that, is the price per unit. Witch is secret, since its not just the unitprice. Its as mush of if we buy this from you! What can you buy from us?

Theese are the "threat ammo" that was used for the tests. This is testfiring on M1A2 armored modules, whithout the Swedish addonarmor. Later tested. Tests on hull armor of Leclair, with Swedish addonarmor. ( a note though, there was lower requirement on the frontal hull. Than on the turret ) Note though. This has not anything to do with any gaps in armor. Since it is the modules tested. Leclerc Leopard 2 Imp M1A2 Rörlighet 2 1 3 Verkan 3 1 2 Överlevnadsförmåga 3 1 2 Ledning 3 2 1 Drift & Underhåll 3 2 1 TOTAL: 14 7 9

First of, I made it like a question. Could it stop 30, 40, or 100mm APFSDS, Right? Not that 30mm fire would suck in there and kill it? And i dont really care, about your low intencive wars since after GW1. My only thinking is what happens when we meet Russia, in a high intencive war. When total airsupremacy might not be. And you might encounter capable enemys at all ranges. And since i´m very familiar with the disignchoises of the M1 to. I also knows the pros, and cons with the design. As with the Leopard. The design is the same today, even though the armored modules is better. And even if the Russians of today, to my knowledge. Dont have any topattack at-missiles. They do have been known to extensive use of topattack artilleryfired bomblets in the Ukraine, from time to time. Even though that has nothing to do with the gap in frontal protection. It might show that the US have been to busy, fighting lowintensive wars for to Long. Neglecting more advanced modern threats? Now, dont missunderstand me. We are on the same side. And my wish is that the US armed forces is at peak performance level. Since you are the only credible help we might hopening to recive, maybe with a little help from GB and Germany. If Russia decides to take the Baltics, and thereby needs the Swedish Island of Gotland. For example.

I Think you missed my Point totally here. This is what i wrote: "And that might not seem to be a problem in Peace, and in a war when you are in Control of what is happening. But in an allout war, when your supplychain is britteling, that can be of most importence" And thats only when the big difference in fuel consumption, really kicks in as a gamechanger.

Now I have to say though. Its not me really, stating it as that effective ( Yes, here it is ). But when reading books by Russians ( and Sovjets) who was in Afghanistan, and Cheshnya. And they described the big problems they encounterd, when soldiers died. Because their own artillery had to low effect in certain terrain. And when they started to use thermobaric amunition, in rocky terain in Afghanistan. And in Cheshnya in urban terrain. Things changed to the better for them. Soviet, and later Russia. Has always been the invasion force of Sweden, since after ww2. So by reading, not only Western books. You can learn a lot, by reading books from soldiers of the presumed enemy to.

I sure hope you are right there, just the thought of playing CMSF2 makes my heart jumping

From Wikipedia "Initial combat experience with Excalibur in Iraq in the summer of 2007 was highly successful, with 92% of rounds falling within 4 metres (13 ft) of the target. Its performance was so impressive that the U.S. Army planned to increase production to 150 rounds per month from the previous 18 rounds per month.[16][17] In 2012, Excalibur rounds reached new record ranges in combat of 36 kilometers.[18]"

Worth noting is, the fuel consumtion. Even though it not has anything to do with the armor. M1A2: 148 Liter/10km Leo 2i: 72 Liter/10km Leclerc: 138 Liter/10km And that might not seem to be a problem in Peace, and in a war when you are in Control of what is happening. But in an allout war, when your supplychain is britteling, that can be of most impotence. This is not the official fuelconsumption, but the actual from the Swedish comprehensive tests.

Every modern tank, has big gaps in frontal armor protection. If you deny that, you just make youself look stupid. When we (Sweden) bought new tanks in the mid 90´s, the last, and best conteders where the Leo 2i, the Leclerc, and the M1A2 (export armor) The target was that the tank with a Swedish made addon armor, would have protection against the highest threats at that time in 70% of the frontal 30 degree aspect. With the Swedish addonarmor, the M1A2 was 50% more protected, than the original one (export armor). But the Leo 2 with the Swedish addonarmor was the best protected tank in the competition. For political reasons, we could not buy DU rounds. But since our otherwise politicaly neutralness, we where not bound to buy ammo from a specific country. So after comperehensive testing. We bought the best 120mm non DU ammo at the time, from Israel. Since i am not in the military any more, since about 15 years. I dont know where the ammo of today is from. But offcorse, the pyrophoric effects after penetration with a DU round, you cant get with a tungsten penetrator. Even if you can get to the same level of penetration.

To the last 1-3 comparison in your post 1: I agree, at the parts that is actually protected by it. 2: I argree, very much. But the lower speed of the rounds, makes the L52 guns more effective in some cases.. 3:I agree, together with the latest Leopard. Have the A2 been hit several times by qualified Threat? No! Have the A2 With export armor been destroyed several Times? Yes! Does this tell us Something? Really No! And does this tell us anything about the big gap in armor, between the hull and Turret? No!

In WW1 thermobaric artillery rounds where not in use. Don't dumb your self down, just because you don't see the benefits of thermobaric rounds. The shorter killrange have i allready wrote about. If there where only negative effects in using thermobaric ammunition. Why would the king of artillery, the Russians, be in sush love with It?

That was on a such low level, so i dont even intend to answer. Maybe grow up a few years, and then come back Here?

In checnya, when Russian tanks were rpg'd from basements. They used thermobaric artillery. Since that was the only way to kill them. And it proved to be very effective..Convention artillery had no effect on the sellar fighters. So there is a reason for the Russians heavy use of thermobaric munitions.

The US is in these days for example, using thermobaric Hellfires on drones, and Apaches to effectivly kill targets. But with less collateral damage. In the US thermobaric munitions are called fuel Air bombs

It is less effective in open space, when it comes to killrange. Which is much shorter. But it is whitin the killradio, that the effect is so much more deadly. In confined space, it has a larger killzone than conventional munitions, as we all knew. And no, i have no links sorry. This is from books, and learning from service. But you would probably find the same on the Web?

Conventional artillery kill by pressurewave, and splinters. And "can" do so in a quite big radios. But troops in cover, it doesn't kill. Since they are in cover from the pressure, and the splinters. A thermobaric grenade, has a smaller killradios (in the open, not confined) but it killes everything there. Cover, and body armor has no effect att all, Everything is dead within the killzone.

From the 70´s to the 90´s. When Sweden had an 850.000 men strong, mostly sitting duck conscript army ( around 100.000-150.000 of them was in mobile brigades though). The field fortifications, to survive the suspected "Storm Fire" as it was called. Was one of the most important things in the education of the conscripts. And we where told that our Artillery struck targets. But the Soviet Artillery annihilated entire grids on the map. What they lacked in precision, they compensated by pure firepower And Russia today, still belives in the heavy use of artillery. So beware. They outnumber the Mighty US in that, and they like to use it. And they are a Heavy user of thermobaric munitions. They learned in Afghanistan, that conventional munitions had quite low effect in rocky terrain. But after starting to use thermobaric artillery grenades, they got better effect. Since it kill people that are in cover. And as Stalin has been said to say "quantity is a quality in its own"

That means, that, like in real modern warfare. Maneuvering is critical to sucsess, even in defence (when spotted) A spotted force, which are not maneuvering. Is just a few minutes away from talking to the Grim Reaper

I have to say though, that I´m running an old version of the mod. This is how my JSGME lookslike *4gb_patch *V03_aspect_rate_16_9 *Steel Sound Mod (STA) 2,2 *STA 1,0 full *STA_GMP_1.45 *STA_GMP_2.37 *STA_GMP_3.32 u11g_sepUpd_2015

The editor is in a World of its own. Dont bother there. CTD is not a common experience for me. I can maybe recall one, or two over the years. So it it should not be normal, no. But read the comments of the version you have installed. It might have some bugs? I for my self, have had a Core I7 X-58 Nehalem based 950 CPU all the time playing that game. Starting with a geforce 470, then a 770, and then a 970. 16Gb (3x6) of RAM (Active) untill Windows 10, when all 18Gb Went Active.

Edit: *Not totally unarmored ofcourse. But thin armored. What does this big thinnly armored gap stop? 30mm Apfsds? 40mm APFSDS? 100mm APFSDS from a T-55? A lucky shot, from an old friend of the Cold war might penetrate. And and just 5" up, not even the latest in AP technology will penetrate?

This video realy shows the huge *unarmored gap, between the hull and turret. That is the Achilles heel of the M1! Dont matter if the turret has DU armor, if you are hit in the huge gap there. You are toast, or in best case. A crew, without a tank. A Leopard 2, of later config. Atleast have the 700mm base composite armor there, if it is hit under the wedge addon armor. And the base 700mm armor is uppdated as well from the A4, at least in the Strv 122 config. And most probably in several other configs, since the Leo 2A4

Yes. very easy to install. Just download the "Generic Mod Enabler" (JSGME). And enable the mods in the correct order (After download/unpacking offcourse), and you should be gaming soon. It is about a year now, since I last uppdated or played it. But Before that, I was very Active for a few years. Uppdating asap when there was an uppdate, reinstalling when i had to etc. It is a good manual of how to install, in the STA mod page. http://stasf2008.ephpbb.com/t6-steel-tank-add-on-steel-fury-1-2 You maybe need to become a free member to see. It look a Little different since my last visit a year or so back. But it should be no problem. And the comunity is as helpfull as here, if you have problems.

That was me. Yes, SF and SA has completly different buttons, unfortunaly. And that was the reason i only played about 15 minutes of SA. Even though iv still have it installed on my computer. It is so long since ive played it. And SF have evolved quite a bit with the STA addon. So i cant tell you. Sorry