arado234

Snowstorm I can just imagine the German civilain pop.response to that(not that it would really matter).If you get a chance to ever read the book:What Stalin knew.It talks about on May 17 1939 Proskurov sent a six page top secret report entitled''The Future Plans of Aggression by Fascist Germany''.Russia already had spies in the German Military Command structure.This report laid out in GREAT detail the plans for the attack on Poland,France and England.It is very possible that the Russians would have found out about Hitlers backstab on them and Who knows how Stalin would have reacted.Could have been a disaster for Germany. If Hitler would have been able to pull off a sneak attack on Russsia that would put him at war with all three major powers.Its hard to say what the Western Allies would have done.Imho they would probabaly take FOREVER to decide and when they finally did it would probably just be some limited attacks on the West Wall.I cant imagine them taking the initative.

bowenw playing the SC2 series P.B.E.M.is ALOT of fun.Try and get game going. The one thing I found about SC P.T.O.was against a human with equal skill the Japs have virtually no chance(as they shouldnt).With SC2 the Axis have a reasonable chance to win.Makes it much more interesting.Im sure this World game coming out will be ALOT of fun P.B.E.M.

Bowenw start playing P.B.E.M. games.Its a HUGE difference.I think the A.I.is GREAT in teaching the mechanics of the game and its the best ive ever played against.No matter how good you make it you can always trick the A.I.It will generally react the same way to any given attack,so its easy once you figure that out you will win prettywell evertime.Against another human its a totally different game.

If the Germans had somehow guessed correctly that Normandy was the spot then imho they would have had a chance to defeat the Allies.It would all depend on how soon they found out.Of course we would know through Ultra that the Germans were aware of the invasion.Im not sure what the Allies would have done then. If the Germans had figured the day of the invasion that Normandy was the real thing it would probably be to late.By the time you get those Panzer division mobile(through Ultra we would have probably known they were coming)it would be atleast mid-day.Those poor armoured formations would have been clobbered by the Hords of Allied aircraft.Who knows what shape those units would be in when they reached the fighting,plus all the naval guns would have opened up on them when they got closer.If the Germans reacted during the night of the Para.drops that would be a total different matter.They could have moved the tanks up at night and come just attacking out of the boccage and once they get in to close the Allies would have a REAL tough time using all their naval and airpower for fear of hitting their own troops. In the end it wouldnt really matter much(the Germans are still going to suffer Huge losses in attempting to defeat any Allied invasion).The German losses after the Soviet destruction of Army Group centre was a HUGE catastrophe.The only reason the Russians stopped outside of Warsaw was so the Germans could crush the uprising.The Russians could have easily just kept on coming.I cant see how the Germans would have been able to form any type of defence anylonger.After Kursk the German panzer armies could never recover. If by some miracle(i dont know if you could call it that)the Germans did manage to hold on untill the Atomic bomb(s) were ready and the Allies did decide to use them,there may have been an even worse response from Germany with all her Chemical weapons Xwormwood was right(I do sincerly apologise)in that Germany had some REAL deadly nerve gas(which we knew nothing about) that would have killed MILLIONS of people.Weather Hitler would have done it.who knows.Im just gald we never found out.

Im thinking they wouldnt care about Russia as much as they would care what Hitler would do AFTER Russia.If Germany did somehow win then he would be very hard to stop. Italy imho would probably do nothing.With France and Britain not Fighting Germany then Italy would be VERY foolish to try any type of expamsion,especially in Africa. Japan needed oil so if the Americans didnt care if Japan and Germany ganged up on Russia and kept sending oil and scrap iron then yes maybe the Japs would attack Russia.They might wait though untill Hitler forced Russia to pull troops West. I guess the biggest question is what would Germany have to attack Russia with.They got a large part of their tank force from taking over the Czechs.Im also wondering how the whole country would feel about attacking Russia.

SeaMonkey you raise an interesting question but do you think the Frenchies and the Brits.would trust Hitler in that after or if he beats Russia he wouldnt come back and attack them?Im not so sure they would(i do realise hindsight is 20/20).

Lots of damage is good.

Xwormwood there were no non-combatants in WW2.Whats the difference if you kill the soldiers waging the battle or destroy his means to wage war in the first place(kill all the''non-combatants by bombing the factories what produce the weapons in the first place killing the people who work there)?By bombing civilian targets it forced Germany to divert lots of man power''combatants''plus many 100s of A.A.guns(especially the 88s)that would have been used in a combat role.Remember you fight to win.People are people.Just because a person doesnt wear a uniform it doesnt make their life any more important than someone who does? You just proved my point about W.M.D.s.You said one of the reasons Hitler didnt use his chemical weapons was because he thought we had them and he had experienced a chemical attack.In other words he didnt use them because he feared a similar if not worse attack from the Allies not because he thought it was wrong.He probably would have used them if he figured we didnt have any just like he would have used an Atomic bomb if he figured we didnt have any and some (alot)of people would have agreed with him.Especially if Germany had won.You are so right in that the victors write History and yes they get it wrong alot of the time. You may be right in that the Americans used the Atomic bomb against a country with no means to retaliate but could still inflict terrible human loss.Xwormwood imho those Atomic bombs DID save many ''non-combatants''by ending the war much earlier and sparing Japan the future of more fire bombings and an invasion which would have killed LOTS of people. Your last comment is absolutley correct in that is exactly what Hitler should have done.I agree totally in that the Americans maynot have wanted to fight a war to the end to free these occupied countries.Look how we sold out Poland and the Balkans at the end of WW2.All that happened is we replaced one evil tyrant for another. Xwormwood even though we dont agree on alot said here I do like getting a German point of view.It has opened my eyes.

I like Xwormwoods idea.

Xwormwood imho the Americans did the RIGHT thing by using the Atomic bomb.Look how many Japanese were being killed in the B29 firebombing attacks.If the war had kept going untill either every Japanese city was obliterated and the Allies had to actually invade mainland Japan the OVERALL cost in lives would have been WAY higher.So by using the Atomic bombs it actually saved lives in the longrun.How do you thinkthe Americans would have viewed their President if they found out after a costly invasion of Japan that they had a super weapon that would have ended the war WITHOUT the loss of anymore American lives? Human nature being what it is imho if those Atom bombs hadnt been used they may verywell have been used in the Korean war when both sides had them.This would have been a disaster.Once the world saw what these bombs were capable of im sure it had a huge influence on why they were never used again.In this case seeing is believing.Same a chemical weapons. As far as Hitler not using chemical weapons just ask the 6 million plus concentration camp inmates about how they felt about your statement about the Germans not using chemical weapons.I dont mean anything bad when I make this statement Xwormwood do you actually expect me to believe that if Hitler had developed the Atomic Bomb he wouldnt have used it.You know as well as I do that he would have.Ill bet his first target would have been London.Remember we also had Chemical weapons which would have been used on Germany. As far as America suffering the Millions of casualties go how would that ever be possible?They werent next to any of the Axis powers.If America had been where Russia is(thats the only way it could happen)then and with the U.S.industrial capabilties they have and the fact they wouldnt have shot most of their officers Germany would have been wiped out if they tried anything so Hitler never would have been in the position to do what he did. As far as Vietnam goes that was just a policing action gone bad(im kidding).I dont know much about that war so I cant comment but you are right in that Americans back home had had enough.The big differnce between Vietnam and WW2 is the Axis powers were a threat to the whole world and couldnt be allowed to win(yes I do realise that the world still isnt the greatest place at times)Vietnam was no threat to America so (im guessing)one of the main reasons it happened was to help stop the spread of communism? You are right Xwormwood it is lucky for us all that a chemical war didnt start.

Snowstorm that is a great idea that JerseyJohn has but by doing so you are altering the game in favor of the Axis.What would you think would be a fair trade for that option?

Kuniworth is right in that the Germans could not win a prolonged slugging match.Hitlers only hope in Russia was to take the position of coming to ''liberate''the Russians Talking about the German mistakes,What if Stalin didnt purge most of his officer cadre? What if he didnt stand and fight on the Polish border but pulled back. What if all Russian tanks had radios instead of those flags the tankers used to communicate with. The Western Allies: What if the French massed their tanks instead of spreading them out.The French heavy tanks would massacre any German tank of the time What if Canada had listened to the British and had the 2000 plus fully trained fighter pilots ready when war broke out(Canada was asked to start the training program in 1938)I see a different result,especially if they were available for the Battle of Britian. Yes the Axis made some REAL dumb mistakes but so did we and if neither side made any big mistakes it would all come down to overall numbers and overall industrial might and technology(especially Ultra,Magic).Allies win everytime,especially since we had the Atomic Bomb.

One more thing about the failed Axis attmept in Africa would be the effect Ultra had.It not only told the Brits.when most convoys were leaving Italy it also told them what they were transporting.It made a huge difference in the sinking of Axis fuel tankers.It also allowed the Brits.to target only the important convoys.It also told alot about how heavy the escort would be so the Brits.knew what to expect and to decide if the convoy was worth the risk.This alone imho was one of the biggest reasons why the Axis couldnt move into Egypt.

Bill101 do you think thats wise.If there are a bunch of KingTigers slugging it out with a bunch of Stalins there is going to be mass carnage.

Imho the biggest overall factor in the Axis demise was overall population. Germany had about 78 million in 1938 Japan had about 72 million Italy had about 44 million U.S.A. had about 129 million U.S.S.R. had about 194 million U.K.(doesnot include Canadas 11 million)47 million U.S.S.R.alone had about the same amount of people as the main Axis countries.Once the Axis failed to K.O.England and the U.S.S.R.they had no hope.

About the weather Snowstorm thats most likley true.Look how big Russia is and the different climates people have to deal with.The Russians knew how to deal with the extreme cold better than anyone.It still doesnt take a genius to figure that summer clothes and the wrong kind of machine lubricants just aint gonna cut it at-30 with that lovely Siberian wind blowing. If the first German built tanks had wider tracks and had Diesel engines(I know the engines were needed for their Uboats)that also would have had an effect on the Eastern front battles.All these little things add up.

Imho the biggest single stupid attack Hitler had as far as Russia goes is when he first attacked, the Russians in most cases they welcomed the Germans with open arms.What kind of Bafoon wouldnt Capitalise on this.Like JerseyJohn said Hitlers racial policies ended that.If Hitler had the brains to see this he could have defeated Russia(or atleast cause another revolt like in WW1)and with Germany being in the only position to have any type of real influence there is no doubt in my mind that Russia would have become at the very least sympathetic to Germany like Spain or a full Ally.Just think what would have happened then.No catastophic losses on the Russian to suffer and possibly gaining the use of of over 100 million plus people.Whole course of the war changes.

Baron are there any Partisans around.If not then it might be a bug and maybe send it to Hubert.

JerseyJohn could you imagine Hitler and Stalin as Allies.That would be so wierd.There would be so much confusion who knows what would have happened.

SeaMonkey if the Germans had actually been able to K.O.Russia and England because of America not getting directly involved(I know it would have been REAL tough)then would Germany really need all that oil right away?There would be no need for a huge armed force.All efforts would go into tech.to make the world a better place(ha ha). Rambo I can no doubt see why you wouldnt want American blood spilt for European stupidity,I just think its better to confront your enemy from a great position of strength than let your Allies(I use the term loosly for Russia)get picked off one by one.

Colin I I also think what would scare people with these Chem.or Bilogical weapons(check out what the Japs did with their Bio.weapons experiments at Mukkden)is the not knowing part of why people are dying.If you dont know whats causing death you tend to get even more scared. I hope you are right in that there NEVER comes a reason to validate the use of Bio.chemical or Nukes.

Crispy are you playing the A.I.?If so how did it react to Spain joining the Bad guys?

Rambo I cant see either how Germany(atleast for ALONG time) would have been able to get all that oil to the refineries even if they did control the Med.It certainly take along time to setup the infrastucture to do all that. As far as Chemical and Biological weapons go neither side(im not counting the concetration camps)used them militarily because(im guessing)that after WW1 it was considered immoral(yes I know the irony)and there are some things you just shouldnt do.Plus neither side wanted them used on eachothers civilain pop.The side that used them first would have been looked upon as a total evil villian that could never be trusted. If Hitler wasnt willig to use them(which is VERY suprising)militarily then if the Allies fired first with them I could see it blowing up,in their face.Since both sides had them and delering the weapon accurate didnt really matter Imho it would have unleashed such destruction(much more than there already was)that it would have made no sense. Rambo as far as tech.goes you are absoulty correct in who knows what eachside would have invented and thats precisley why imho the Americans had to get into the war as fast as they could to end it(yes I also would have done things differently but hindsight is 20/20)so Germany didnt have any chance of developing some Ultra high-tech weapons.

Colin,Ludi you guys are absolutly correct about the subs(considering how much ocean eachtile represnts)but I dont know if what Ludi suggests is the right way to go(I do like the idea)for this type of game and yes im all for adding more and making the game more technically advanced(if anyone has played the board game Squad Leader,they will know what im talking about)and historically accurate but since most people play against the A.I.then I guess coding the game for all these upgrades would be a tough thing to do?

Rambo Germany wouldnt have to take the Med.If Russia went downthen they would just come around the other way and if you recall the people of the Mid-East were none to fond of the Brits and would have done everything in their power to help the Germans. As far as getting the oil to Germany just truck it through to Turkey(yes I realise how hard that would be) and you could then build more refineries in Romania etc.You wouldnt have to send all the oil to Germany.Actually how much oil would Germany need?If the Axis had defeated Russia and England they wouldnt need such a huge army anymore. Do you think the Americans could build a bomber that could fly from America to Germany and back before Germany had enough Rockets to start firing first? I just think if the Amis.hadnt got directly involved when they did it would have meant the oveall loss of ALOT more lives(including Americans)Like you said,who cares if its a soldier that dies or a civilian.