PanzerMiller

I've been thinking about that same thread as I work my way through this discussion. I think the whole "engineered vs. designed for effect" debate is critical material for this forum, although I realize it ultimately boils down to philosophical differences that are unliley to be resolved here. C'mon, Blackcat -- don't go home now! We all learn so much on this forum from the ideas, throughts and analyses we present -- including yours. Get back in there, soldier!! -- Your morale is waning!!! (ironic, isn't it??!!)

Good stuff as always, JasonC. So how much of the success of a particular assault such as the ones above can we ascribe to superior offensive tactics, and how much to inferior suppressive fire capability of the defensive positions? Can we make an educated guess? You yourself, JasonC, helped teach us to use good tactics in assaulting a fixed HMG position in the early days of CMBB (I believe that thread is still archived on the Interweb to this day!)... Another question: Reading these accounts makes me think about the ways in which we can perhaps plot a sort of time series of a unit's morale during a given action, and what that plot would look like. Is it a continuous decreasing function over time, with a gradual erosion of morale and unit cohesion, or could it instead be more of a "step function" where morale declines more precipitously onoy after the unit encounters a given threshold level of incoming fire? Which would be more realistic? And how is it simulated in CM?

Outstanding work, Rambler! The beautiful graphics in this game will look even...beautifuller...

Thanks, George! I know I really have to fire up the game to see this stuff for myself, but job/kids/chaos too often get in the way... So are the campaigns composed of existing scenarios/missions that can be played as standalone, or are the scenarios unique to the campaigns? Are the campaigns like operations were in CMBB? Might you be planning a Blowtorch-esque or von-Strachwitz-esque series of scenarios for CMBN? Your CMBB contributions were nothing short of epic...

I received my Steel Box yesterday and am chomping at the bit to load it up... It sounds like most/all of the campaigns are to be played as Americans against the AI. Are there similar campaigns to be played as German vs. AI? Thanks!

Close Combat III: Russian Front

Thanks for the update, Steve...so it's back to Operation Fredericus in CMBB...

God help us all...

***sigh***

Great job to all at BF!! I really like the format, even if I can't possibly read the online version. And to echo earlier comments -- really, could we refrain from editing the document???!!!

Thanks, URC...I've got Volume 1 in my library -- haven't read it yet but actually referred to the maps therein while reading Kurt's book. I would definitely agree that Hubert's treatment looks more authoritative; Kurt's is just an appetizer. Looking forward to digging in soon!

A noble venture to be sure, LLF...this looks fantastic! The photo of the sunken road later on in the thread gives me the willies. The Green Books will give us an almost inexhaustable list of qualifying small-unit actions. If you're willing to take this on, I'd be all over it... Can't wait to see what you modders and scenario designers are gonna come up with this release... And yes, 'tis a pity FJ and SS units, as well as those of the Commonwealth, are absent from the first release...but we can't be too greedy now, can we?

Erik -- In the end, I think your first question gets to the crux of the issue...and the answer is almost assuredly "no". Monty undoubtedly had his own hand tightly on the trigger, and Canadian II Corps was only doing what it was told to do. As was Monty's style, he would wait to attack only until he had what he considered to be overwhelming firepower superiority, and when every tank was lined up as they were on the parade ground. According to Meyer, Churchills were lined up bogey-to-bogey across the fields near Falaise when the last attacks finally began. But Meyer apparently took the initiative and did what he could to break up the Canadian attack with his own pre-emptive counterattack. It worked, to the extent that HJ's battered remains could effectively engage in combat operations with no air and little artillery support. For a good discussion of the leadership issues during the Normany operations and beyond, I highly recommend Patton, Montgomery, Rommel by Terry Brighton. Really good read. As for the race to Berlin: indeed, that is another topic...!

Swedes eating chili???? Madness!!! Interesting find, eh?

I definitely agree, and have read his book Grenadiers with the salt shaker by my side throughout (if you know what I mean...). But in this case, he's simply noting that the Canadians of II Corps, and in particular the Canadian 4th Armored Division, were waaaaaaay too tentative in their offensive operations on the north side of the Falaise Pocket in August. If they had been more aggressive on the battlefield, Meyer asserts that the Canadians could have completely destroyed what was left of 12.SS-Panzer-Division, which was at that time little more than a batallion with its 25th and 26th Panzergrenadier Regiments basically bled white. The Allies had overwhelming numerical superiority, complete control of the air, and all the momentum they needed. So instead of blaming somebody else for their ultimate defeat (at least in this case), Meyer was only expressing surprise that his division was only badly mauled and not totally ground into the mud. In fact, he praises the advance Batallion of Canadian 4th Armored for their "outstanding performance".

Actually, the Canadian history is available in full here...all 800 pages of it! I've been reading alot of material on Epson to Totalize lately and I'm tempted to see if the Canadians offer a critical self-examination of their rather meager performance during this period. Kurt Meyer and others have been pretty critical of their tentative offensive approach. As has been the case for me for nearly a decade now, the latest flavor of CM has prompted me to expand my WWII library even further...thank you, Battlefront!

pawter...wow, this is indeed a pretty confusing post. But now that I understand where you're going, I don't think the current system is unrealistic. As other people have pointed out in this thread, a good commander would strive to have at least some knowledge of the local terrain to improve his chances for successful offensive / defensive operations. The tactical map at the scale of CM would certainly be small enough to allow for effective recon. Just one interesting example: In his memoir, Grenadiers, Kurt Meyer describes how his defensive operations between Caen and Falaise were improved greatly by the intimate knowledge of the French countryside he gained while stationed there earlier in the war. He knew every fold in the landscape, and could set up a very effective defense in a short amount of time. In the language of CM: He saw the whole map...

Thanks to Bil and The Capt. for a great AAR -- and to all of you for a really great set of discussions! Can't wait to play...

Thanks for the advice...I've stuck with CMBO/CMBB over the years and I've been a bit nervous about how different the UI was going to be in this newest offering. Mega-demo will be on its way soon...

Given the number of books in the Stackpole series, that's quite an accomplishment! I just started to read Grenadiers -- Kurt Meyer's memoirs of his activities in the East and the West. I figured that would be a good way to gear up for the CM:BN release...

Well said...easy to see the right path in hindsight, eh? Given the nature of the engagement and your initial successes, I can see where you had confidence in moving forward. But holy crap, fortunes changed in a hurry!!

Definitely the understatement of the thread to date. Bil -- That crossfire you've got going now is brutal. The image of those two 75mm shells streaking toward their Sherman target is rather ghastly. Looks like it's about time to hunker down and scan the immediate treelines for paratrooper AT teams, eh?

April 6, 2001...my older brother with whom I played SL / ASL back in the 70's and 80's (yeah, I'm an old geezer around here) sends me an e-mail saying "You gotta check out this new game called Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord..." I did, and here I am.

Outstanding!!! Kirk is off to fight the Gorn...

No thanks...I'm more than happy with what y'all have done with the game as it is...it really does look amazing and, according to the flood of information from the AARs to date, it's got incredible gameplay! Well done!!