Wartgamer

Not really. The US pineapple grenade would blow the top and bottom off in large chunks. Its really a defensive grenade. http://www.rt66.com/~Korteng/SmallArms/grenades.htm

I disagree entirely. Direct hits on most ATG that are dug in is very dificult and the real target is the vulnerable crew.

Depends on the grenade also. Japanese grenades were best used for suicide. German stick grenades were not particulary great either (without a frag band). US grenades were particularly dangerous (old pineapple type). They could chunk out large frags that would fly way beyond any throwers capability.

Actually artillery striking the buildings on either side would rain down fragments into that shallow position. There may be a building very close by to the left that they could crawl to. I do not think they are in the very middle of a road.

I challenged Dorosh and he backed down. I now challenge Jason to be his 'AI'.

Jason's Infantry Division theory seems to further fortify that Kursk was anti-blitzkrieg warfare. Not sure if he is just throwing it in to further his 'German's didn't mobilize in time' previous theories. One could just total up the German 'dumb' losses (Stalingrad and Afrika) and there would have been more manpower available. The Germans could have realized as early as July 41 that they were being bled. They more than likely saw the losses early in Russia as falling in line with previous successes that would end soon. But the Germans lost 54K KIA/MIA during July 41. They also had 'non-recoverable' WIA who would never fight again. Aug-Sep-Oct 41 showed similar bleeding but with a slight downward trend. Nov 41 should have been a decision month. They 'only' had 33K KIA/MIA this month. But Barbarossa had cost them about 25 divisions worth of manpower already. They still had the winter losses coming. 1942 saw a similar long bleed. More than likely the Germans had a heck of a time just getting replacement pools filled. 1942 capped with the debacle at Stalingrad (where panzer troops were misused by the way). Could the Germans have really had 25 ID 'extra' by July 43? Given the way they screwed up till then? It would seem that they would have had to have raised them before Barbarossa and there was no real reason to do so. It would have required they put the war with the Soviets off for awhile also. [ June 16, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

Manstein wanted to use a defensive/manuver approach to destroy the Soviets after they attacked. Guderian is oft quoted as wanting no German offensive and wanted to compleat the German armor evolution. Zeitsler (sp?) wanted a hootenany big blowout. Hitler was a like a gambler on tilt because he went for the blow out. Stalin played it safe and listened to his generals.

Hitler wanted to keep as much of Russia as he could. He also wanted the Kursk attack by the way. But he kept delaying the attack. Surprisingly, Stalin also wanted an attack pre-Kursk. His Generals sold him on the defense for Kursk. Stalin said he would wait but not for long. Perhaps Hitler should have delayed the attack even further. This is certainly what some of his Generals wanted (some did not want an attack at all). If Hitler did wait, he may have got the Soviets to attack. This could have led to a defensive victory (The Germans being at a zenith in mobile power) and a chance to follow up with a counter-attack on the Soviets outside thier defensive belts. Kursk in many ways is anti-Bltzkrieg. [ June 15, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

Yes its interesting. I would pay attention to the data. The Germans lost too many tanks in the first few days. At an unacceptable 'exchange' rate to soviet tanks lost (mind you many german tanks were lost to minefields, ATG, etc). The Germans could not afford to lose at a 2:1 ratio ever. Later in the battle, it was the Soviets chance to get bled. But they could afford it.

So if people believe a myth, its a real myth? If I choose to not believe a myth, is it a false myth?

http://diana.gl.nps.navy.mil/~twlucas/Student%20theses/Turker%20PDF/09Chapter3.pdf#search='Kursk%20units' interesting

I believe the Germans fired off something like 2 million 105mm and 150mm arty rounds during Poland alone. I would guess that they also did up a likewise amount during France. It just does not seem correct that they could have fired off that many rounds in one opening barrage. The Germans did move many units into the battle area including FlaK units. Theres a spreadsheet around somewhere.

The story of Kursk really needed data from both sides. It was probably not till after the Soviet Union collapsed that real data could be weighed against what was 'known' up till then. I wonder about reports of the German barrage being bigger than the Polish and French campaigns combined..

I think the Soviets played the armor development and deployment game best of anyone in WWII. They did it under tremendous pressure also.

I CHALLENGE THE LITTLE SEAMSTRESS!!!! If I win, he has to sew himself a little bo beep dress and wear it and post a picture on his canadian website under the title 'Canadian Comfort-Girl'.

Well Handled. And I believe that people are claiming that I am many people.

Its apparent to me that Dorosh has his own rules to post by. Others have the forum rules. I know for a fact he even used the abusive term 'Fu*k you' on occasion. I have never used such vulgar language. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=010449#000014 Just do a search under member 4604 and sh*t and theres 4 such instances. Again we see the untruthfullness. You DID edit it out and therefore you had SOME reason for it not to be here. If nothing else, its a funny picture. I do not expect you to be truthfull and find you to be contemptible. I will not be drawn down to use your gutter vulgarities either. [ June 13, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

You're a moron. </font>

Dorosh if thats you admit it and move on.

Thats such a sad sack of nothing on the left. Its like a poster boy for masturbation.

The guy on the left did look like a bed-wetter. Evidently, that was Dorosh's sad image and he was embarressed. He looks like some poser in that uniform and helmet. He has since edited that pic out of his website. [ June 11, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

CM3PO?

Edit: Dorosh substituted out a pic from his website [ June 11, 2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

But what would he suck if another man was drunk? Thats what I want to know.