Wartgamer

A test to find out a projectile is dangerous beyond its usable range? OMIGOSH! Lets break out the Noble prizes!

To use hyperbole as fact is CW-Baloney. Served with a pinch of 'Salt' does not make it any more palatable.

Most 'smoke' is noxious in enclosed spaces like buildings. And Shermans fired WP more than most other obscurants.

Actually the point is that it was tested in a way it was not used. And I doubt the accuracy anyway.

Yeah I guess a M16 could be put in a vise attached to a steel table also. Maybe some wheels with chocks?

Ive fired a M16 at full auto at 20m, 50m and 100m. I really do not care what 'John Salt' extrapolates.

A (single?) Panther on the defense is a single tank. It can readily be smoked/bombed/out-manuvered. The correct use of armor is in groups and utilize thier mobility.

I would mark up the overall poor performance to crappy leadership at command level and facing TAC-Air and Superior Artillery than any 'Green' factor. Its hard to get past 'green' when you are bled Red from the get-go. Panthers/PanzerIVs are not uber-tanks and any time they are used 'Tiger-Style' (outnumbered by many weapons), they will lose. By mid-44, the whole uber-tank (armor across front/sides defeating AP) is a thing of the past. Most guns can hole most tanks in the sides. Only combined arms/use of smoke/concentration of force can offset an enemy. Driving a Brigade into the middle of a division is just bad command. BTW: Panzer Brigade 101,102,103 and 104 were all sent to the eastern front with 36 Panthers each in AUG 44. For a short period, a sizable number of Panthers fielded were being sent to these PB. The most telling stat is that more Panthers are lost in September 44 than in July and August (All fronts). The Germans also lose 750 some Panzer IV during September 44. The German use of armor is suspect during Fall44. How much is because of Panzer Brigadom is debatable. In another thread it was explored that the fielding of Panthers showed that the Germans actually had a buildup of Panthers since it was taking too long to get the Ist Panzer battalions trained on them. perhaps the Germans felt this was a way to get them out of depots. A better solution may have been to just convert certain Panzer Divisions to all Panthers. The thought being that a Panzer Division that had one Battalion already trained on Panthers could expand its two battalions 'on-the-fly'. Its Panzer IV guys having traing plus experience making the jump easier than newly trained tankers from a school. The 'Panther' division could then be a major attack and counter attcking force. Other Panzer Divisions could get Panzer IVs with a mix of Jagdpanzer/StuG making up the other Battalions. In effect, they become Super-Panzer-Grenadier divisions. They are really defensive in nature against heavy armored attacks but could still play a back seat counter-attack role or exploitation role. [ May 05, 2005, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

Indeed. Nothing worse than CW baloney covered up with lots of CW malarkey-sauce. Same goes for STEN guns firing full auto and hitting targets at 300 meters. Thats SAW capability.

Actually the Panzer Brigades started with Hitler's suggestion about having small mobile fast groups to counter attack an destroy enemy armored attacks. They were supposed to be 'antitank' units and counter attacking units at that. He brought this up right before Bagration. Perhaps that is why they were 'based' around the 75MML70 gun (Panther and JagdpanzerIVL). Tigers are too slow and other 88s (Jagdpanther) not available. The 'Panther' gun would give the units 'homogenous' ammunition/gunners and AT capability. On the eastern front, attacking armored units would have greatly outnumbered them. They would have had some quick initial effect but in reality, given the dropouts from battle/breakdown, they would not have 'staying-power'. Just as the Panther 'brigades' at Kursk melted away, I suppose too would the 1944 Panzer Brigades. Any use of tanks like the Panther or the Tiger required centralized recovery/repair/parts/etc. Supposedly there were two types of Panzer Brigades: http://thingy.apana.org.au/~luddite/wargames/Type2PzBrig.html http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/downloads/pzbrig1944.pdf#search='Panzer%20Brigades'

Blue, what weapons experience (if any) do you have? Even at a 25 meter range, it would not be common with semiauto.

Interesting that the Panzer Brigades were given Panthers. Many of the remnants were absorbed into PD after being destroyed btw. They were also used on the eastern front and accounted for many of the panthers lost during the summer.

The screen is effective because it is in a valley of sorts (trapped). It also appears to be a favorable wind that is blowing across the front line. It would be interesting to see video of a 2 inch laying smoke. How long it takes to develop/etc. The 2 inch smoke round was 2 pounds? What point is being made? That smoke in general is under modeled or that another CW weapon has additional uber-properties? The US 60mm may not have had a smoke round till late in the war or not at all (till Korea). The US troops would have to rely on WP hand/rifle grenades or more than likely 81mm WP. [ May 04, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

No, you do not understand. each BREN bullet will pass through the same hole +/-0.001". Happened all the time. So the CW was forced to issue extra caffienated tea so that the mighty BREN gunners would get the jitters and therefore introduce some dispersion. It was called BREN-BREW. Everyone knows that. The STEN was credited with 408 confirmed downed Luftwaffe bombers also.

Learn spelling.

Recent research has uncovered that the Vickers was a super-heavy indirect firing uber-machinegun. The BREN was a super mobile medium machinegun of mythical proportions. And the best light machinegun also too (Of course). But its now apparent that the STEN was actually a SAW and a light machinegun and a SAW and a submachinegun in addition also too. This, and the fact that CW troops ran around with WWI helmutts, shows the world how great they were.

How much does it cost to treat you like Jersey scum? I am willing to pay.

I think the 57mm may also have been somewhat rare during this time. This website says it was just starting to be delivered around Kursk. The soviets did manage to produce SU 85 and SU152 in roughly equal amounts and in numbers comparable to the number of Tiger/Panthers showing up. http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/atg_4.html

The Panzer Brigades were not all green men. They were built around remnants of other divisions and would surely have some experienced people amongst the green loaders and other 17-18 year olds. I can't say I approve of the concept if there were PD and PGD that could have used the weapons instead. The Soviets had figured out how to do things by late 43. Unbelievable that the Germans would futz around like they did.

Getting back to what the Soviets did in Fall43 to thier armored formations... So the SU85 and the SU152 were the cat killers during this time. A game like CM with its microscopic view does not always appreciate the bigger picture.

On the eastern front, the Panther does not assume its parity with the Panzer IV till summer 44 (even thoughproduction of each vehcile has been roughly the same since fall43). May 31 44 shows that the number of PanzerIV is equal to the number of Panther+Tiger (actually greater than 50% operationally). Replacements by June31 are only 123 Panzer IV but 265 Panther and 32 Tiger. This would appear to be the actual start of Panzer Divisions meeting the 1944 criteria. June and July show many 'First' battalions of Panzer Regts arriving with new panthers. Unfortunately, July, August and September are the worst months for Panther losses! They losses are meeting or exceeding production. From Sept44 to early45, Panther and Panzer IV on the eastern front are about equal (600-700). Tigers still are in the 200-300 range. The Soviets are fielding T34/85 and JS2 tanks as well as better SU tank killers. They are maintaining better production and now fielding better tanks. The Germans have dragged thier feet and now need to rely on LATW (which are becoming available in greater numbers) and improved jagdpanzer (Hetzer/jagdpanzerIV). StuG vehicles are starting to become second line AT weapons. The Soviet and US 'policy' of sticking with a MBT design and improving it seems to be winning out over the German attempt to change horses in mid-stream. [ May 03, 2005, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

German tank strength Kursk PzII 108 PzIIIkz 121 PzIIIlg 532 PzIII75 169 PzIV kz 60 PzIV lg 756 PzV Panther 200 PzVI Tiger 270 PzBef Cmd 126 Total 2,342 * Actually Pz38t (some PII are actually Pz38t) ** Plus 13 Flammpanzer *** Plus 25 T-34 **** Plus 14 Flammpanzer MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK FINAL REPORT A similar pattern was evident in military equipment. In 1943 the Soviets were outproducing the Germans in most categories of military equipment. In addition, they were receiving considerable quantities of equipment from Great Britain and the U. S. The table below shows the numbers of tanks and self-propelled artillery pieces the Red Army and the German Army received per quarter in 1943, including those the Soviets received through lend-lease. Military Equipment Received in 1943 Type of Equipment Soviet (Average per Quarter) German (Second Quarter 1943) Heavy Tanks 225 156 Medium Tanks 4,100 1,315 Light Tanks 1,400 100 Self-Propelled Guns 1,100 1,325 TOTAL 6,825 2,896 [ May 03, 2005, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

Yes. He was just counting turreted German AFV but counting that as total. IOW, he was wrong. I forget the author but I believe you were also in that old thread contributing. Anyway, An interesting stat would be ratio of turreted to turreted AFV from Kursk onward in 43.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-007/B-GL-371/006/FP-001/B-GL-371-006-FP-001.pdf This is probably the link he wanted to post. It is also, like his inane blast remark, not that relevant to the discussion on mortars.

That old thread was not counting anything but German turreted afv.