Baron

Rambo, I've been shelled so many times that when we were getting shelled and they were falling far enough from us we didn't even stop what we were doing. It was a dumb thing to get that attitude because you can't be sure of where the next one is going to hit but I'd say almost our entire company reached this level of indifference. We could tell the difference in outgoing and incoming and could even tell you the size of the shell/rocket by its impact and noise. I'm not saying that air power wasn't effective, what I am saying is that in WW2 time frame TAC air was much less effective than you'd like to believe. On the SAC side of the house German war production peaked in 1944 after being subjected to 1000+ bomber raids for almost 2 years. Were the Germans afraid of the bombers? Hell yeah they were,at least the civilians were, because we couldn't hit the broad side of a CITY using the tech at the time. That is why we resorted to carpet bombing as precision attacks were not doable at the time. Nowadays its different and I have several nice videos taken through NVG's to show what TAC air and counter artillery fire is capable of doing.In the time scale of this game though it is a no go. out

Thanks for the link SO it was a good read. "This operation clearly demonstrated that previous high altitude bombings and long range bombardment of Iwo Jima directed only into "target areas" achieved negligible damage to the very numerous defenses of the island, which were stout, comparatively small, and well dispersed. Photographic interpretation shows, on the contrary, that the defenses were substantially increased in number during December, January, and early February. The bombardment by this force on 16 and 17 February also had less than the desired effect, due to interference by weather, to the need for giving way to minesweeping and UDT operations, and by lack of thorough familiarity with the actual important targets, and distinguished from a mark on a map, or a photograph. It was not until after fire support ships, their spotting planes, and the support aircraft had worked at the objective for 2 days, had become familiar with the location and appearance of the defenses, and had accurately attacked them with close range gunfire and low altitude air strikes, that substantial results were achieved. This experience emphasizes once again the need for ample time as well as ample ships, aircraft, and ammunition for preliminary reduction of defenses of a strongly defended position. At the same time it is realized that certain defenses will never be destroyed or even discovered until after the troops land" I think the AAR report says it all - bombardment from Strategic level resources had negligible effect on the defenses of the island. Incidentally Iwo was the only amphib operation in the Pacific in WW2 where the attackers took more casualties than the defender. Cary, I agree that the game does a fair job for large hex no stacking. I still believe however, a more realistic approach would be too have air units/naval forces have a maximum effect of no more than halving a units strength(10 str corps could be lowered to no more than a 5 str).This way using multiple attacks from various units - be they air or naval, the best result you could achieve would be to lower a unit to str 1. This makes the unit a walk over by any other ground unit - but to take ground in war you need ground units to occupy the ground, that will never change I don't care how many JDAM's you put on target. Even the carpet bombings that preceeded Operation Cobra destroyed no more than a 1/3 of the German forces. They did however make another 1/3 combat ineffective and the last 1/3 were a walkover for the Allied ground troops that pushed through the area afterwards. I would also hazard to guess that had the Germans had 9 corps of troops in Normandy we would have landed somewhere else. Total German casualties fighting in Normandy were close to 200K (this figure does not take into account the Falaise pocket or the casualties taken during the retreat across France or the Dragoon landings). In game terms this amounts to about 1 Army. If there are a line of Corps defending the beaches - 1)bombard them down 2)land airborne to destroy the 1 str unit 3)land your unit destroy another adjacent unit 4)land unit in newly cleared square ect I think that maybe SC2 concentrated too much on the Strategic items at the cost of the wargame side. With the editor provided I'm sure that a lot of mods will come about that address these issues. We whined and cried so much about getting the game to us that the playtesters didn't have time to see the forrest through the trees. The game is very enjoyable but its not quite done yet IMHO. I still think that HC is the man! out

The Tang isn't really relevent is it? It did manage to sink itself. Now that is something I'd like to see happen is SC2

I read that an IJN sub actually sank one of Stalins boats in the Pacific during WW2. They claimed an American boat and it wasn't until after the war was over that it was determined who the real victim was.

Having been on the receiving end of these nuisance attacks on several dozen occasions I can say with confidence that the biggest effect it has on the targets is that it pisses them off! I like the idea of ground units not taking hits from air units until their entrenchment is reduced to 0. This would reflect that fact that units in the “open” were the ones that suffered the most from TAC air. I also get very frustrated at the damage that the air and naval forces inflict on the ground units in this game, especially those that the navy inflicts. The weakest part of SC2 IMHO is the naval game. It is very abstract which is fine for a WW2 Strategic Level game but it doesn’t even leave the chance of repeating or expanding on what may have happened or did happen at sea during WW2. Sea Lion is a joke, and then some cruiser squadron can knock 20 -30% of an ARMY’S strength down by 1 bombardment! It is too preposterous to even imagine something like that happening. I’d like to see naval units that are used the way they should be used - hunting and interdicting the sea routes. Instead with this game engine the Naval war is just not representative of what happened and with the cost of these units I’d be surprised to ever see anything like what happened in WW2. German surface ships don’t cause any damage to the Allies while loose on the convoy routes and subs are useless since the enemies ships point right at them even if they were seen or not. A bomber that can reach the sea lanes should cause convoy losses. They sank more Allied shipping than the surface forces did. Maybe these factors are abstracted into the current rules – if they are I’d like to hear that confirmed and hear the rational used in the decision making process. In short since this is primarily a land centered game I believe that naval and air units inflict way too many casualties. Under no circumstances should a ground unit ever be eliminated by a naval or air unit. Sure they might be bombed into being combat ineffective but killed? Ask the Marines that fought on Tarawa, Iwo Jima, or Okinawa how effective months long bombardments were in destroying the enemy’s moral or just plain destroying the enemy. I love this game I think that the naval and air values are just too effective against ground targets. Out

US had 38 million? Between 1939 and 1945 the correct numbers for the US were as follows: USMC 669,000 (1939 – 1945) US Army/Air Corps 11, 260,000 (1939 – 1945) USN 4,183,000 (1939 – 1945) That only adds up to +/- 16,000,000 I am looking for the information right now and have not found it yet but if my memory serves me the US only had around 9 million in uniform at the end in 1945. Far from dredging the bottom of the barrel like the Europeans and Japanese were forced to do the USA did not even fully mobilize! The approximate population of the US was 130 million in 1939, the USSR 190 million. The US mobilized slightly more than 10% of its available manpower (this figure raises when you take into account the fact that the Country misused 15% of it manpower by not utilizing the African American troops to their utmost). In contrast the USSR with a population of around 170 million put over 34 million in uniform or about 20% of their available manpower. Of these 10 million were killed or missing and another 10 million were casualties (these numbers do not take into account civilians). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country It is also interesting to note that the USSR out produced the USA in the numbers of tanks produced: USSR 95,000 - USA 88,000. I won’t go into the figures for ships and aircraft other than to say the USA alone out produced the all the Axis countries by itself. World War 2 Nation by Nation, by J. Lee Ready published 1995. ISBN 1-85409-209-1 So where does this leave us? It is obvious IMO that the United States is way under represented in this game. Were the true figures used of course it would not be much of a game. So we have to figure out a way to fix it. I for one like build limits but these limits should be reflective of what was used in theater. I as a wargamer enjoy the beer and pretzel type of games. SC2 is such a game. What I would like to have is the correct available forces and the engine to let us go from there. It is painfully obvious the is not the case for the USA in this game. I understand that for game balance purposes the USA must be reigned in somehow. The link http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/manpower.aspx was an interesting read but it didn’t explain why there was a shortage of trigger pullers. The reason there was a shortage on the front lines is the tooth and tail issue. US forces then and now have 10 men in a Division for every one Rifleman who is behind a trigger. A US Division is as big a European Corps and a US Corps is as big as a European Army. The same formula holds true of a US Army – they are as large as a European Army Group. So if we are to have these artificial limits placed on US forces they should have their combat strengths adjusted upwards. I won’t get into the Research issue right now but I think what we have right now stinks. Sic Semper Tyrannis

Male, 39 , SW Virginia

I think everyone is missing another important issue that has been touched on in other discussions. Armies should have higher defense values two to three times what a Corps has - after all an Army is noting more than a collection of Corps. As it is now the only reason to even build Armies is that you run out of Corps to build.Corps are way to powerful in this game. On defense entrenching is an option if you have the time and money to build and use the engineers. As they are now they are darn near useless to purchase and if you do invest in them you'd better start entrenching around Stalingrad, even then the Germans will probably beat the engineers to the tile! I like using a mobile defense but if the other side has the same techs as your side it is not a viable defense either.

I just increased the Army defense (doubled) value. Armies have several Corps attached and should be better at defense than Corps. You have all the Army level attachments plus those that the Corps bring with them. On the other hand Armies should not be as mobile as the Corps since they do have all the extra baggage to cart around.

I accepted the surrender offer as soon as it was put on the table. His Russian forces utterly wiped out Germans with 3 and 4 bars of experience like they were nothing. When the surrender offer was made there were more Russians in Germany than there were Germans! I really enjoyed the game and hope I've learned some from it. A salute to my foe!

Things don't look good for the Axis. German reinforcemennts are being fed into the meat grinder and being spit out by the Red army. In hindsite I should have gone after N.Africa .... Even thought the casualties are horrendous on both sides- the allies can affors it the axis can't.

The RN continues its suicidal presense near my LF. The Italian fleet sorties and eliminates a RN carrier and knocks a BB to 1, another RN crusier is knocked down to 6. On land the BEF losses a corps and has another knocked down. As a nice plus the German army is repurchased at half price.

As the conflict continues the Imperialist British Empire attacks the peace loving Greeks. The LF counters and sinks another British BB. Still no contact with the Americans.

I took way too long taking the English isles. The production points are way out of whack in the allies favor, still they are not making a difference yet.The Eastern front has been quiet. The RN is a collection of broken down damaged ships and the German Navy is more than a match for the American Navy. I have built a sizable reserve to counter any Western incursions on the mainland. They will also be available to operate if need be to Spain or Turkey. I'm being out played but I'm still getting in some good licks!I am really enjoying the game so far. Salute, HR!

Ireland falls as does Finland. Tech levels are coming slowly but they are coming.

British pull troops out of England. Turkey keeps inching towards Axis. Reserve is in place now to handle anything the Western powers might try. Turning my attention the the Soviets now.

There was a discount on the Corp, not sure why. Allies continue to fight around the edges of the game. I'm sure the stratatgy will be to just out spend the Axis.

Big invasion of Italy appears about to happen. Either that or he is making a land route to Russia. Syria just fell. As Vichy French shouldn't they join the Axis?

The Brits are still piling troops into England. The easier to kill then I say. Port is cleared and HQ lands.

Slow going in the snow....

The dice are cast. I most continue to follow my plan for victory.... The RN masters the Med

Ouch! the RN returned to sink a sub and a BB. London falls and RN in Med is pounded more. Tripoli hold and garrison commander is granted his Knighthood.

Another RN CA goes to the bottom of the Med and a RN carrier is also hard hit. Rest of the RN moves towards W. Med. to little to late....

Canadian and British CA's are on the bottom of the North Sea. The entire RN is in the Med.... British diversionary landing is dieing slow death.

He needs to be the RN losses a BB and has a CA knocked down to 2. The British continue to strengthen the Med.