Mr. Tittles

Combat Stats http://www.4point2.org/hist-87A.htm#statistics Days of Combat - "A" Company From 6 June 1944 to last commitment 27 April 1945 326 days Total days tactically employed 317 days Longest sustained period, 20 July 1944 to 5 Dec 1944 139 days Total days of rehabilitation and maintenance 9 days Rounds Fired - Battalion HE WP Total Total 109,604 74,406* 184,010 *includes 484 rounds of FS Highest daily expenditure (19 March 1945) 206 5,376 5,582 Rounds Fired - "A" Company HE WP Total Total 37,053 16,115 53,168 Highest daily expenditure (27 Nov 1944) 563 969 1,532 Highest monthly expenditure (Nov 1944) 7,852 3,029 10,881 Number of days expenditure exceeded basic load 7 Rounds Fired - "B" Company HE WP Total Total 21,984 17,151 39,135 Highest daily expenditure (19 Mar 1945) 186 1,711 1,897 Highest monthly expenditure (Mar 1945) 1,187 6,274 7,461 Number of days expenditure exceeded basic load 5 Rounds Fired - "C" Company HE WP Total Total 26,990 20,781 47,771 Highest daily expenditure (23 Feb 1945) 96 1,578 1,674 Highest monthly expenditure (Dec 1944) 5,081 1,884 6,965 Number of days expenditure exceeded basic load 7 Rounds Fired - "D" Company HE WP Total Total 23,577 20,359 43,936 Highest daily expenditure (19 Mar 1945) 20 2,417 2,437 Highest monthly expenditure (Mar 1945) 844 6,208 7,052 Number of days expenditure exceeded basic load 5

The following is a regimental dump list from US Army in Italy MG30 cal 150-200K 30cal Garand 75K (8 round clips) .45 25K 60mm 1500 81mm 1500-2000 81mm smoke 600 Grenade frag 1000 Grenade offensive 500 Smoke pot WP 150 Grenade yellow 200 Colored signals 300 Grenade rifle 500 Bazooka 300 This is a maintained level an could be taken as a usage level of sorts. Interestingly, 60mm smoke was not mentioned. 81mm snmoke was mentioned. I would assume this to be a WP round. Other parts of the report mention that 81mm heavy HE was also used in addition to the light 81mm HE round. Rifle grenades must have been popular. The report mentions smoke pots WP; would these be M15 handgrenades?

Infantry assaults up the mountainside proved ineffective. As did artillery, since nothing but a direct hit on a cave opening was of any use and there was little of that in shooting at the well-camouflaged side of a mountain. But the 4.2 is an area weapon and its crews were facile in the use of WP as a wound-inflicting weapon. White phosphorous on bare skin bores deep holes into the wound consuming for its continued combustion oxygen from the surrounding flesh. At Clark Field the enemy was bare-footed or barely sandaled. Thus there was no absolute need for direct hits on cave openings. Barrages at night to light up the neighborhood splashed WP particles all over. Captured documents revealed that the enemy considered WP our most devastating weapon and that it so enervated and devitalized their troops in the mountain caves at Clark Field that their stronghold was soon overcome. Thus by virtue of the 82nd's 4.2, the major obstacle north of Manila in the western sector of General Douglas MacArthur's “return” was wiped out. ...also... This matter of accuracy was vital where the targets were draws or close-in approaches to our defensive lines, or for defilade fire areas, or enemy positions against which we were to provide close support of an Infantry assault. The 4.2 was favored by the infantry in any situation, because it had “pin-point” accuracy compared with other heavy weaponry and, with its high angle of fire, was the best high explosive delivery system for jungle warfare, to say nothing of its spectacular WP capability. Infantry mortars of 60mm. and 81mm., smoothbore weapons, were not nearly as accurate as the rifled-bore 4.2 and provided only 28% to 52% of the firepower per round. Artillery rifles and howitzers, because of their relatively flat trajectory, were practically useless in jungle warfare. The same can be said of tanks regardless of size, except for mop-up operations after roads and bridges could be developed. http://www.4point2.org/hist-82-p4.htm#Chemwarfare [ October 22, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Heres how to get rid of WP shells..... Normally, when disposing of high-explosive munitions by detonation, we tried to position them is such a way so as to contain and direct the explosion into the ground, to reduce the amount of shrapnel flying about. However, with WP the idea was to explode it into the air, where it all ignites and burns itself out. If exploded into the ground, some of the WP would blow into the soil, not burn, and later work its way to the surface and ignite. In this instance, we finally solved the problem by placing the warheads along the side of a large crater and exploding them sideways across the crater, thereby keeping the amount of shrapnel at a minimum while exposing the WP to the air. We could only do small numbers of warheads at a time, and it took quite a while to clean up the mess. Our biggest problem was that exploding WP is quite spectacular, leaving long white trails of smoke in the air, even when done sideways across a crater, and we found it difficult to keep spectators away, especially Vietnamese children, who never seemed to realize the danger of exploding munitions. http://www.zianet.com/tmorris/vn.html [ October 22, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

(5) Capabilities -- the average soldier can throw the grenade 30 meters. The grenade has a bursting radius of 17 meters. All friendly personnel within this 17-meter area should be in a covered position to avoid being struck by burning particles. The WP filler burns for about 60 seconds at a temperature of 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit. This intense heat causes the smoke produced by the grenade to rise quite rapidly, especially in cool climates. This makes the M15 grenade less desirable for use as a screening agent. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m15.htm

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/60mm19.htm This site claims a 11 meter WP casualty radius. the WP round for this mortor looks bigger than the HE by the way. I am assuming that this korean war weapon is the same as WWII though. Also the 81mm http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/81mm.htm [ October 22, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/clay-pigeons.html I remember reading in this book about 4.2 inch mortor fire. the author relates how the shells would break up into long (8-10 inch) splinters. One such splinter cut a german in half. These may actually have been splinters from a WP shell. I would doubt a HE shell would make such large splinters. These mortors were rifled and resultant splinters, whether HE or WP, would have an added velocity component to them from the spinning REGARDLESS of splinter size. http://www.tankbooks.com/interviews/giffdarp2.htm In the sherman vets account about shooting at an ATG and finding severed feet afterwards also supports the theory of rifled weapons firing WP producing splinters. There is quite a bit of energy in the spinning component of a shell. I would suppose that 60mm and 81mm WP mortor shells to be equivelent to something between 20mm and perhaps a frag grenade as far as HE/splinter equivelence. But larger mortors (especially the rifled ones) and guns firing WP would have much more bang/splinters on the target end. The infantry WP grenades would not have much blast/splinters at all. They did have quite a bit of WP though. [ October 22, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Tony D’Arpino: I think Sergeant Warren used to have the right idea. I can remember him, God rest his soul, saying, I made tank commander for a couple of weeks, that’s another story, but he used to tell me, "Listen, if you ever become tank commander," he says, "never mind getting the high explosive shells. Get the white phosphorous." He says it does the same job and twice the damage. Ed Spahr: Well, they’d have knocked us out quicker, I think, if I wouldn’t have fired white phosphorous that day. Because that one tank stopped. Tony D’Arpino: Nobody got much white phosphorous until Sergeant Warren. Ed Spahr: I hit him right in the front and that tank stopped because he thought he was on fire. http://www.tankbooks.com/interviews/giffdarp2.htm This interview includes another story about blowing away an ATG in a building with WP. tanker relates how he just found a couple of feet near the gun. [ October 21, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

That is the heart of it. It is very much like a flamethrower in its effect. But I contend that when it is fired from a rifled gun, it still retains a small HE effect with splinters as well. To not model it at all is a disappointment. In North Afrika, it is not that big a deal to me but in Sicily and Italy it will be missed.

I think the numbers might support the following logic; 4.2 inch Mortors used a ratio of 19:16 of HE to WP. Comments by Commanders attest to its effectiveness in both a smoke producing and casualty causing agent. I would guess that 81mm and perhaps 60mm US mortors might have fired some? I would wager some of the 5 million some rounds fired by the atillery might be WP also? I think perhaps your number crunch could use some more pencil sharpening. Organization Corps & Divisions of the 3rd Army III Corps 31 Oct 1944 - 11 Feb 1945, 18 Apr 1945- 9 May 1945 V Corps 6 May 1945 - 9 May 1945 VII Corps 1 Aug 1944 - 5 Sep 1944, 21 Dec 1944 - 22 Apr 1945 XII Corps 1 Aug 1944 - 9 May 1945 XV Corps 1 Aug 1944- 24 Aug 1944, 29 Aug 1944- 29 Sept 1944 XX Corps 1 Aug 1944- 9 May 1945 AIRBORNE DIVISIONS ARMORED DIVISIONS INFANTRY DIVISIONS 1st 2nd 4th 5th 8th 26th 28th 29th 35th 42nd 65th 69th 70th 71st 76h 79h 80th 83rd 86th 87th 89th 90th 94th 95th 97th 99th 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th 16th 20th 2nd French 17th 101st I am sure a grog might be able to come up with a tube count of sorts. The bottom line is that your logic is flawed. WP was a weapon used at the squad level and above. To ignore it is ahistorical. How it should be modeled should be addressed. This thread is not about WP mortor support but about WP as a weapons system. Many cut n pastes could do the same about infantry use of WP or tank/arty use. [ October 21, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The most common chemical grenade was the M15 White Phosphorous. Weighing about 31 ounces, using the M6A3 fuse with a 4.0 - 4.8 second time delay, the M15 had a burst radius of about 25 yards and burned for 50 to 60 seconds. Officially intended as screening, casualty and harassment, the WP could illuminate a suspect area for the gunners while still giving any enemy in the area other things to worry about. The Mk1 (middle right) was an Illuminating grenade. http://www.pnwhg.org/1stid/grenades.htm This WP grenade would burn for a whole CM turn.

Third Army's nine chemical mortar companies expended 349,097 rounds of 4.2 inch mortars, including 189,095 rounds of high explosive and 160,002 rounds of white phosphorous. Chemical warfare supplies included 32,454 gallons of flame thrower fuel and 335,944 grenades. http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/handsonhistory/ww2/3rd_army_history.htm

Following are remarks made by infantry commanders at the conclusion of the Sicilian campaign regarding the mortars and work of the platoons of the 2nd Chemical Bn. "...The chemical mortar is simply grand. In this battalion we are completely sold on them. We think the attached chemical company did a marvelous job. These mortars proved to be tremendously effective for all sorts of missions, especially against machine gun nests, strong points of resistance, prepared strong points, pillboxes, and targets in defiladed positions beyond the range of our regular mortars. They are accurate as the devil up to 3000 yards and more, and the pack a punch worth two 81mm's. We dropped one round on the corner of a house and killed nine Germans who were taking cover behind it. We think these mortars are the finest weapons we have seen. A German prisoner we got referred to them as "automatic artillery." Our battalion CO and also the regimental commander have recommended that these mortars be made organic with the infantry. We think they are just tops..." - Captain Putnam, 3rd Bn, 179th Infantry "...Despite the weight and ammunition problem, it is a magnificent and extraordinarily effective weapon. The mortar is most effective with white phosphorus and HE. The Germans are very allergic to white phosphorus anyway and we would root them out of their holes with well-placed rounds of phosphorus and, when we had them above ground, we plastered them with HE. We killed large numbers of them that way, and they sure dreaded the mortars. They are the equivalent of real artillery. We also used them in the assault coming ashore. I have said we used them; I really mean the supporting chemical troops used them. They did such a good job with us, we got to regard them as our own people. The prize package was one day when a chemical officer actually dropped a round of HE from one of his mortars into the open turret of a German tank..." - Lt. Col. Wiegand, CO, 2nd Bn, 179th Inf "...The 4.2 chemical mortars are marvelous weapons. After we had a platoon attached to the battalion, I was scared to death they would take them away from us and attach them to some other outfit, the demand for them was so great. The Germans were deathly afraid of them and the prisoners told us that they thought they were some kind of new secret weapon like an automatic cannon, because they had such tremendous effect and could be fires so rapidly. I do not recommend that they be made organic to the infantry. I much prefer that we have attached chemical troops as we had in Sicily. Their cooperation and proficency was all anyone could ask for. We shall always want a platoon attached to us, and we think that the best results are obtained by cooperative, attached units like we had. Without exageration, I would say that the 4.2 is the most effective single weapon used in support of infantry I have ever seen. We have yet to see an enemy position that was tenable when we fired on it with WP and HE from this mortar. They can reach into almostly perfectly defiladed positions, and their effect is devastating..." - Lt. Col. Patterson, CO, 3rd Bn, 180th Inf http://www.4point2.org/hist-2w.htm I think that the most simplest of research finds information similar to the above as far as mortor use of WP.

I dont doubt that WP was used by US Mortors extensively. The 4.2 inch even had rifling I believe. If the concern is ahistorical misuse, this could be handled like the tungsten rounds perhaps. Perhaps only a linited WP are 'present' and the rest are generic smoke. Another method may be to only area fire these rounds, not have units be the target. In any case, to not have them in the game, and to have things like cannister or molotov cocktails present, does not seem quite right. Infantry WP grenades could be modeled as molotov cocktails by the way. With a greater increase in fire and resultant smoke. North Afrika would have been fine without WP but Italy should have them. The US was on an offensive war footing and the use of WP was part of the program It was not ahistorical, it was a weapon that the enemy probably wished they could use.

So weapon systems that fire WP in any specific form are no different than smoke shells? I would assume then infantry can not 'throw'/fire (rifle type) smoke grenades at all?

WWII US 75mm WP shells relied on the burster charge to split open the shell. The spinning of the shell and bursting charge would dispense the WP and shell fragments. The base of the shell is quite thick. I have a drawing of a M64 WP 75mm shell in cross section. Perhaps someone could post it somewhere so that it can be linked here? I think it is a fine point but there is a difference between mortor/grenade WP and gun fired WP. The gun fired WP would be very much more deadly. It would not have the HE level of deadliness of a typical 75mm HE shell but to not model its WP/HE/Splintering effect is leaning in the wrong design direction. If nothing else, does CMBO model WP so that it produces smoke without the usual delay seen in CMBB?

WP stands for Waffling Pengsters. A unique cross breeding of mutants that's suffering from chuckleheaditus. The least the management could do is come in here and say "NO! You can not have that". {{{thread pans to a shopping mall near you}}}}} SantaMatt: So what would you like for Xmas little soldier? CMAKfan: uh, uh, lots of Willy Peter, panzer IV turrets that are like real small, transparent halftracks so I can see inside... SantaMatt: NO! NO! NO! AHHHH-HaHa-HARRR Get out of here kid and GET A LIFE!!! NO! NO! NO!!! CMAKfan: WAAAAAHHH!!!! MOMMMMYYYYY!!!! [ October 19, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

WP on ebaY! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2197473596&category=4720 I have seen WP rifle grenades but this is the first bazooka WP round I have seen.

The Rangers assaulted the house and Lt Moody kicked in the door, killed the officer in charge and led the search of the trenches dug behind. The Rangers began the systematic destruction of the pillboxes and positions using grenades, rifles and even their bayonets. Lt Moody was killed clearing one pillbox and command fell to Lt Saloman. Sgt Belcher led a furious charge of German machine gun positions that were pouring a murderous fire down onto OMAHA. Using white phosphorous grenades, the Rangers cooly shot the Germans as they fled the burning positions. http://www.grunts.net/army/rangers.html I think this demonstrates what WP grenades can do. That is, make a position uninhabitable.

Could there be something like large bases that extend beyond the vehicles? I feel like a squirrel looking around for some forgotten nut or something. While we are at it, could the bases be representative of the unit? squares for infantry? diamonds for HQs? triangles for FOs? Circles for crewed weapons?

Recently in a thread about HE effects on armor, it was brought up that WP is modeled in CMXX as being non-lethal. I only own CMBB so this was news to me. I think that someone said that it was desired that its effects not be over modeled. Or something. I can see that infantry WP hand grenades might be over modeled but to not model WP shells from tank guns and indirect artillery seems an oversight. WP shells fired from guns like the US 75mm sherman tank used the same shells as HE rounds. These rounds had a HE central filling to break open the shell (the HE was less than a regular HE round but still strong enough to break the shell). The result on the target end is a nice bang, a smattering of shrapnel and the chemical reaction of the WP with the atnosphere. Since the rifled guns fired a spun shell, this rotational energy would be transferred to the resultant shrapnel. Any piece, small or large, would be a deadly projectile. I think the modeling of WP breaks down to 3 cases; 1. Infantry grenades (hand and rifle) 2. mortar rounds (mostly non-spun and thin walled) 3. Rifled guns (arty and tank guns) I don't think WP grenades needs special modeling. They could be treated like regular grenades as far as effect with a great chance of raising dust/small smoke. They should be tracked like regular grenades are. I think WP mortor rounds should produce instant smoke and have some displacing/morale effect. Troops hit by them will move to other cover/be suppressed. I think guns/arty should have more of an 'HE' type effect in addition to the effects like the mortar WP. I would bet that a WP shell fired by a gun like the sherman 75mm could easily break most tank tracks with a direct hit. As it was put forth in the other thread, these shells had some real kinetic energy. I can email cross sectional views of 75mm HE and WP shells. [ October 19, 2003, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

There is actually a reason to paint a barrel white. It takes advantage of an optical effect. At a distance, light colored objects blend nicely into light backgrounds. I think it is called the Yahuda effect or something like that.

Thats interesting; half the weight and half the range. I assume they would fire a common type of round? Didnt German engineers have some type of spigot type mortor also? Very short range but a big payload?

maybe you should write less? You yuster be funn-e-er or sumthing. Heck, anything is funnyer then most dist crap. Get fuuny or get bent now. Like I mean it . Man.

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