Mr. Tittles

I doubt that there would be any communication equipment. In the game, all units have unrealistic control (especially as far as movement). Bazooka teams are not weapon platoons. They are assigned assets. To have their movement severely restricted (long delays), while out of command control brings them back to reality. To use them like recon away from the main force (out of LOS) is especially gamey. The game should base delay on being in command, being out of command and being out of command AND LOS. The last case being the worse delays. Perhaps scouts should be a unit type. Stealthy 2 man units, binos, etc.

Oh! wohoho!! That was FUNNY and WITTY! I especially like the clay tablets kicker!!! FUNNY! Tell us some more about your girlfriends. You know, like the time you related to us about the girl that had the same first name as Kitty? It was a very good storytelling Michael.

I fully support this dewaffling and hope that Peng droppings, Kitty litter and general doroshiness be curtailed. It would be especially nice if such 'Peng-like' threads be bottom stickied. This, of course, means the thread is locked on the bottom of page. From what I understand, Seanachai likes being bottom-stickied so it should work out well all around. Down with Peng.

http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/GermWeapProd.html A good website with gun and ammo production. The PAK40 ATG must have been the majority user of this ammo production. The tanks used different ammo and the only other user would be SP types like the Marder, etc. Interesting to see how little AP40 or smoke ammo was made. The data shows a hollow charge round?

The Hetzer was first issued to panzerjaeger battalions (3 of them) then to inf and panzergrenadier division AT companys. This was from mid-44 on. The panzerfaust and Hetzer came on board about the same time. This stiffened the AT capabilitys of German divisions considerably.

Depends where along the barrel it is. If its at the end of the barrel, and the round has neared muzzle velocity, the round would 'penetrate' the obstruction. If near the front of the barrel (close to breach), before the round has accelerated (and pressure is extremely high), there the chance of a burst barrel or over extended recoil damage. Barrels are not as hard as armor. modern barrels actually are designed to bulge and restore shape.

I find the over-control gamey. If anything, buying these units should assign them a HQ to be under. So they arent freelancing gamily. Being out-of-command should have substantial delays. perhaps sneak being excluded from a long delay. US use of the bazooka as infantry support weapon was widespread. After-action reports document its use, along with rifle grenades, as 'door-knockers'. D-Day assault groups were built around BAR, Bazooka and Bangalores. The bazookas were not expecting German tanks on the beach. I think all bazooka/schreck should try to save at least one rocket no matter what non-armor target is assigned.

You might want to check out the HE effectiveness thread going on. Mortars may not get as much improvement from high airbursts than arty shells do. So a Mortar round that bursts in a high tree (lets say at least 12 yards off the ground), will throw its fragments out sideways (trimming the tree tops) and some of its close density lethality (being within 10 meters) is lost. An ideal mortar round, or bounding betty for that matter, will go off between a yard or two off the ground. This is devastating. Its sidespray is optimized. But in WWII, the mortar rounds were only superfast or delay. They did not have todays prox fuses. An arty shell that goes off in the trees is much more lethal. Arty shells producing not only bigger fragments that travel well and will cut through branches/foilage/etc very well, they will have more of its sidespray pointed at targets. Most arty fragments from ground bursts go either into the ground or up in the air. Being under an airburst like this probably magnifys its concussive effect because the blast bounces off the ground but blast and distance are important. Fragments produce about 60 times the casualties than blast according to some studies.

Two 50 mm. HE shells for German AT guns were detonated by U.S. Army ordnance personnel. While the specific model of the shells tested was not identified, the weights, empty, of the two specific rounds tested were 3.52 and 3.54 pounds. A total of 202 fragments weighing 3.29 pounds was recovered from one shell, and 193 fragments weighing 3.46 pounds were recovered from the second (fig. 26). This made the percent of fragments recovered 93.4 and 98.3 percent, respectively. Taking, arbitrarily, a ratio of 200 fragments for 3.35 pounds of metal, the number of fragments for 1 pound of metal, a rough measure which was previously adopted for comparative purposes, becomes 60 in this case. It must be noted in this and the other examples for which this rough approximation was calculated that, in all probability, the unrecovered portions represent large numbers of extremely small fragments which would greatly increase the total number of fragments if they could have been recovered and counted. On the other hand, it was previously shown that these minute fragments have considerably less wounding potential. If, as was stated, one dimension of shell fragments is usually a function of the thickness of the shell wall, then many of these extremely small pieces must be sliver shaped. They might not incapacitate a soldier immediately, but it is obvious that they could -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- become real surgical problems when their localization and removal is mandatory, such as in the case of foreign bodies in the eyeball. FIGURE 26.—Fragments recovered from one of two 50 mm. high explosive shells of a German antitank gun detonated in Zone of Interior. Since this is basically the focus of the thread, medium caliber HE, its worth going over again. A 50mm HE shell breaks up into 200+ fragments typically. Notice the large size of the spread of fragment types. Since this is a high velocity weapon (compared to a mortar), the velocity is a major factor in fragmentation delivery. The HE shell already has 'fragmentation' velocity even before it explodes. The density of forward directed fragments results in a well defined 'forward-killing-cone'. Since this is a precision weapon under most circumstances, this 'cone' can be placed where it is needed. For direct fire targets such as crewed weapons (many men closely manning a weapon), buildings/bunkers, these fragments would result in lethal effects. Since the HE blast effects are so minimal in this range of calibers, the cone fragmentation and gun velocity/precision effect make up for it.

A comparison of the 81mm and 88mm would reveal that many of the 88mm fragments are typically going into the ground or strait into the air. This is assuming a ground burst. The mortar will land near vertically in orientation. This will deliver fragmentation from the sides of its shell casing around the point of impact. The front of the shell and the rear account for waste. If many fragments are too small, they will be short ranged and just overkill in a small radius area that is already covered. The 88mm effectiveness varys greatly with burst type (ground, tree, etc).

I think they should be attached to platoon/company HQ as integral personel. In other words, they stay with the HQ. Perhaps the same with AT teams. Any extras bought beyond the # of HQs are auto attached to squads.

It was close range and the target was just going back and forth (routing/freaking/whatever) and the HMG was just pouring it out. Much as I recall.

Ive seen the complete opposite at least once. A HMG went on a firing spree against one moving target (who was doing a crazy back and forth panic from the MG fire). The HMG loosed off 25-30 shots in a minute. It would have been nice if the HMG had switched to another target. The game should prioritize target selection based on range/threat. If firing at a target, and it goes to ground, then shooting at another closer/moving target would be better.

Its a higher velocity gun. The L43 and L48 are related but the L46 is a slightly different animal.

Amatol might actually be better at building demolition than HE filled shells now that I think about it.

I think the 88mm data above shows that Amatol is not the weak sister of TNT. The data shows a good fragmentation pattern and deadly velocity effect. In certain shell casing material types, TNT may not be ideal. These fragments are much larger than the 81mm mortar fragments (German). They are also less in number but many were not recovered (more than likely very small).

The HE 88 mm. shells tested were filled with amatol (43/57) and weighed approximately 22½ pounds. The external diameter was 88 mm. (approximately 3½ inches), and the average wall thickness was 0.60 inches. When fired against ground targets, a percussion or time fuze was employed. Two rounds were detonated in January 1943 (fig. 29). The rounds when empty weighed 19.17 and 20.37 pounds. For the first shell, 84.6 percent of fragments—1,488 pieces, 16.2 pounds—were recovered. For the second shell, there was a 78.6 percent recovery consisting of 1,543 fragments weighing 16 pounds. The number of fragments per pound in this experiment was not quite 95, one of -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 66 FIGURE 29.—Fragments recovered from a German 88 mm. high explosive shell. the lowest ratios encountered so far. This finding is actually more apparent than real when one considers the low percent of recovery. The smaller fragments, which are many, were probably not recovered. Other static detonation tests of the 88 mm. HE shell were conducted. The basic data included fragmentation results and the mean, minimum, and maximum velocities of fragments over the first 10 feet. From this basic data, the data shown in figure 30 were derived. The method of derivation was basically the same as that explained in the preceding section on mortar ammunition (p. 53).

I suppose you could relate penetration to 1/2*mV^2 and find V. http://www.waffenhq.de/panzer/kwk42.html Data like this would help. [ January 13, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

This problem could effect HVAP also. If the dense center is not axially balanced, or there is a difference in the surrounding material balance, then it will lose accuracy. The US, at least, made the most accurate HVAP from reports. The US did not prodice APDS in time for WWII in ETO but supposedly, it was also accurate.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009028;p=6 you might check the last page. theres a link to mortar fire analysis. even today, light mortars are not that deadly to pers with overhead cover.

While slightly off topic, the collapse of a building can cause casualties as well The game models building damage in stages. I guess just shooting at same sized buildings, with different weapons/calibers could give insight into 'how long this weapon makes this happen'. Ie. Get a feel for what a 75mm IG can do to a certain building types and then play around. The game may not model this but different fillings in the same shell would cause different damage. An example would be a 75mm HE shell with Amatol or TNT. mechanisms for building damage could be: 1. point burst (on the exterior wall surface) 2. wall burst (in the wall material) 3. Interior blast 4. Fragmentation size 5. Blast effects from HE 6. Building parameters (material type, strength, previous damage, interior wall density, etc) I am not sure is damage is tracked by building entity or by 'tile'. meaning is damge tracked by just the tile building entity or does being larger (and the support that might mean) factor in. [ January 12, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I think that there are many variables here and possibly many failure modes. 1. Velocity variations. If a gun would produce a considerable velocity variation, than a narrow penetration gap would appear. This would be intermittant. 2. Decapping. Shatter gap in this case is then explained by cap failure. Under certain conditions, the cap does not protect the penetrator and the penentrator shatters. 3. Large base HE predetonating (90mm but if you read the reports, they want to possibly use all inert ammo for all AP) 4. variations in armor. Thickness, quality, type.. Its unbelievable that Tiger I shoots were not done with US ammo prior to D Day. Sicily? Italy? There must be data. My opinion is that these field shoots are the best 'snapshot' data. It gives the wargame designer a real performance characteristic and supposed range data can be interpreted to the field data.

The precision needed to hit the 'flat' part of this curved surface is greater than it might appear. In the process of hitting the surface, and missing, you damage it and muck up the test. The surface can be represented as circle when viewed from the side. It rapidly changes slope as hits are distributed up and down the surface. If a formula for a circle is written and a derivative taken (showing the tangent) then it can be understood mathematically. The precision to hit the mantlet at 200 yards is probably achieved but the precision to hit the particular 'strip' needed is not.

B-5. EFFECTS OF COVER ON HIGH-EXPLOSIVE ROUNDS Enemy forces will normally be either standing or prone. They maybe in the open or protected by varying degrees of cover. Each of these changes the target effects of mortar fire. a. Surprise mortar fire is always more effective than fire against an enemy that is warned and seeks cover. Recent studies have shown that a high casualty rate can be achieved with only two rounds against an enemy platoon standing in the open. The same studies required 10 to 15 rounds to duplicate the casualty rate when the platoon was warned by adjusting rounds and sought cover. If the enemy soldiers merely lay prone, they significantly reduce the effects of mortar fire. Mortar fire against standing enemy forces is almost twice as effective as fire against prone targets. b. Proximity fire is usually more effective than surface-burst rounds against targets in the open. The effectiveness of mortar fire against a prone enemy is increased by about 40 percent by firing proximity-fuzed rounds rather than surface-burst rounds. The steeper the angle of the fall of the round, the more effective it is. c. If the enemy is in open fighting positions without overhead cover, proximity-fuzed mortar rounds are about five times as effective as impact-fuzed rounds. When fired against troops in open fighting positions, proximity-fuzed rounds are only 10 percent as effective as they would be against an enemy in the open. For the greatest effectiveness against troops in open fighting positions, the charge with the lowest angle of fall should be chosen. It produces almost two times as much effect as the same round falling with the steepest angle. d. If the enemy has prepared fighting positions with overhead cover, only impact-fuzed and delay-fuzed rounds will have much effect. Proximity-fuzed rounds can restrict the enemy's ability to move from position to position, but they will cause few, if any, casualties. Impact-fuzed rounds cause some blast and suppressive effect. Delay-fuzed rounds can penetrate and destroy a position but must achieve a direct hit. Only the 120- mm mortar with a delay-fuze setting can damage a Soviet-style strongpoint defense. Heavy bunkers cannot be destroyed by light or medium mortar rounds. B-6. EFFECTS OF TERRAIN ON PROXIMITY-FUZED HIGH-EXPLOSIVE ROUNDS The multioption fuze functions best over open, firm soil. Snow or sand can cause it to function low or on impact. Water or frozen ground can cause it to function early. If proximity-fuzed rounds are functioning high, they are still effective. The HOB can be reduced by using the NSB setting on the fuze. It cannot be increased except by choosing the steepest angle of fall possible. a. Proximity-fuzed rounds fired over built-up areas can detonate if they pass close by the side of a large building. They can also function too high to be effective at street level. (Impact fuzes are the most effective in heavily built-up areas.) b. In dense jungle or forest, proximity fuzes detonate too early and have little effect. Impact fuzes achieve airbursts in dense forests, and delay fuzes allow rounds to penetrate beneath the heavy canopy before exploding. http://www.tpub.com/content/USMC/mcwp3152/css/mcwp3152_237.htm Some interesting info. WWII mortar rounds did not have the proximity capability. Some noteworthy info is the angle of attack, cover, etc.

Sabot rounds in both the 6 pdr and 17 pdr were noted to be innacurate.