Dandelion

Yac, I am still working on them. I was interrupted by my system upgrade, causing a 2 month episode of having no functional PC. System works fine now and work was resumed as of November. The series has proven more difficult to produce than I had anticipated. I have now enlisted another member of the board to help me out. Cheers Dandelion

-gulp- Right. Motorised infantry list. GD had WK, but was recruited nationwide. 3. WK III (Frankfurt/oder) 10. WKXIII (Regensburg) 14. WKIV (Leipzig) 16. WKVI (Wuppertal) 18. WKVIII (Görlitz) 20. WKX (Hamburg) 25. WKV (Ludwigsburg, Stuttgart) 29. WKIX (Jena) 36. WKXII (Wiesbaden) 60. WKII (Greifswald) The Light division lists include only those that converted to Jäger. There were others. I am assuming this is intentional. Also missing some divisions that turned into Jäger divisions, but who did not start life as Light Divisions. 5 WKV (Kolmar, Ulm) 8 WKVIII (Troppau, Metz) 28 WKVIII (Breslau, Lüben) 97 WKVII (Bad Reichenhall) 100 WKXVII (Ried, Braunau/Inn) 101 WKV (Brünn, Heilbronn, Bruyères, Karlsruhe) 117 WKXVII (Braunau) 118 WK XVIII (Radkersburg) Mountain list. 1 WKVIII (Mittenwald, Garmisch) 2 WKXVIII (Kufstein) 3 WKXVIII (Leoben) 4 WKVII (Garmisch) 5 WKXVIII (Salzburg) 7 WKXIII (Fürth) Hm. Some divisions missing here. Well that concludes all the infantry listings I found on the site. I see you've got the WK for the Panzers. So, Guess you'll have to use an Atlas on Germany and check what region these places are all in then You'll become a virtual German geography grog doing it, if you're not already. Cheerio Dandelion

"Other" sites. You mean you have more still? Officially Austrian yes, insofar that WKXVII (Amstetten) was divisional "home". The men were Germans from Bohemia, Moravia and southern Saxony, regions bordering eachother. Amstetten (the Austrian, not German, Amstetten) lies in Niederösterreich, another bordering region, specifically along the Danube just South of the Moravian border. So together they form a coherent landmass and the Germans in them spoke like dialect - not far from Austrian but still distinctly not. So the recruiting area of the Division was Bohemia, Moravia and South Saxony. I'm surprised you don't know how to say that in German Michael, Andreas must have grown soft on you. Of course I have. It's elementary. German listings will often display as such: ID 331 (WKXVII, E II./130 Amstetten) - IR 557 (Brünn) - IR 558 (Durch WKIV Dresden) - IR 559 (Durch WKXIII Pilsen) - AR 331 (Aus WKIV, XVII und XIII) That way you know where the men were actually from. Now, 331st is an oddball, a 17th Welle Walkür division, most others will have regiments from the same WK as the division. The 500, yes. I pasted your list into this post, and will now fill out the gaps you have. I notice there are almost 250 absentee divisions in your list, I am assuming they are not interesting. Infantry list 5 WK V (Ulm, Kolmar) 6 WKVI (Bielefeld) 7 WKVII (München) 8 WKVIII (Troppau, Metz) 9 WKIX (Marburg) 14 WKIV (Leipzig) 15 WKIX (Frankfurt/M) 17 WKII (Schneidemühl) 18 WKVIII (Görlitz) 26 WKVII (Mülheim) 28 WKVIII (Breslau, Lüben) 31 WKXI (Braunschweig) 34 WKXII (Koblenz) 35 WKV (Heilbronn) 44 WKXVII (Senica, Hradisch) [HuD was the Gds Rgt of the Austrian empire, thus the name] 45 WKXVII (Linz) 46 WKXIII (Karlsbad, Bayreuth) 50 WKIII (Guben, Züllichau) 52 WKIX (Eschwege, Kassel) 56 WKIV (Dresden, Bautzen) 57 WKVII (Brannenburg, Reichenhall) 67 No inf div 68 WKIII (Frankfurt/Oder, Schwerin, Warthe) 69 WKVI (Detmold) 70 WKVI, created from Schattendivision Wahn and not affiliated in this sense. 71 WKXI (Hildesheim, Aschersleben, Hannover) 72 WKXII (Koblenz, Heidelberg) 73 WKXIII (Erlangen, Laun) 75 WKII (Neustrelitz) 76 WKIII (Brandenburg) 78 WKV (Tübingen) 82 WKIX (Frankfurt/Main) 86 WKVI (Detmold, Herford) 88 WKXIII (Erlangen, Laun) 94 WKIV (Naumburg, Bautzen, Zwickau) 95 WKIX (Frankfurt/M) later transfer to WK VI (Köln, Mülheim) 98 WKXIII (Hof, Gitschin) 99 WKXIII (Fürth) (this was a light inf div) 102 WKVIII (Diedenhofen, Cosel) 106 WKVI (Mülheim/Ruhr, Aachen) 110 WKX (Oldenburg, Lüneburg) 111 WKXI (Hildesheim) 112 WKXII (Mannheim) 113 WKXIII (Passau, Prag) 123 WKIII (Crossen) 125 WKV (Ulm, Kolmar) 129 WKIX (Fulda) 131 WKXI (Hannover) 134 WKIV (Zittau) 137 WKVII (Krumau) 161 WKI (Allenstein) 162 WKII (Rostock) 163 WKIII (Frankfurt/Oder, Spandau) 164 WKIV (Dresden, Zittau) 167 WKVII (Kempten, Brannenburg, Reichenhall) 168 WKVIII (Tarnowitz, Arzweiler, Neutitschein, Kattowitz) 169 WKIX (Frankfurt/M) 181 WKXI (Hannover, Hameln) 183 WKXIII (Weiden) 186 No inf div. 197 WKXII (Kalisch, Idar-Oberstein) 198 WKV (Konstantz) 206 WKI (Insterburg, Bialystok) 208 WKIII (Lübben) 211 WKVI (Bonn, Köln) 212 WKVII (Neuburg, Augsburg) 213 WKVIII (Bunzlau) 216 WKXI (Hameln) 217 WKI (Allenstein, Ortelsburg) 221 WKVIII (Breslau, Wohlau) 229 No inf div 239 WKVIII (Gleiwitz, Diedenhofen) 246 WKXII (Worms, Saarburg, Trier, Luxemburg) 251 WKIX (Eisenach, Fulda) 252 WKVIII (Jauer, Schweidnitz) 253 WKVI (Rheine, Aachen) 254 WKVI (Detmold, Düsseldorf) 255 WKIV (Döbeln) 256 WKIV (Glauchau) 257 WKIII (Landsberg/Warthe) 258 WKII (Stralsund) 260 WKV (Karlsruhe) 262 WKXVII (Mistelbach) 267 WKXI (Blankenburg) 268 WKVII (Füssen/Allgäu) 269 WKX (Lübeck, Itzehoe) 285 This was converted from a Sicherungsdiv from WKII (Kolberg) 286 Same as above, SichDiv from WKVIII (Altkirch/Oberelsaß, Bunzlau, Teschen) 292 WKII (Stargard) 293 WKIII (Landsberg) 294 WKIV (Leipzig, Dresden) 295 WKXI (Blankenburg) 296 WKVII (München) 297 WKXVII (Engerau, Olmütz) 298 WKVIII (Breslau, Carlowitz) 299 WKIX (Siegen, Büdingen) 305 WKV (Karlsruhe, Straßburg) 323 WKV (Konstantz) 328 WKII (Güstrow, Viborg, Schwerin) 330 WKVII (Augsburg) 335 WKV (Konstanz) 336 WKIV (Naumburg, Weissenfels) 337 WKVII (Kempten) 339 WKIX (Eisenach) 340 WKI (Budweis, Wartenstein) 342 WKXII (Landstuhl) 357 WKVII (Brünn, Kremsier) 367 WKVII (Augsburg) 370 WKVIII (Diedenhofen, Neutitschein) 371 WKVI (Düsseldorf, Minden, Paderborn) 376 WKVII (Kempten) 377 WKIX (Aschaffenburg) 383 WKI (Königsberg) 384 WKIV (Döbeln) 385 WKVI (Namur) 387 WKVII (München) 389 WKXII (Commercy, Mörchingen) 402 a zbV division from WKII, no specific affiliation. 404 As above from WKIV (Dresden) 408 As above, from WKVIII (Leignitz, Görlitz) 413 As above, from WKXIII (Fürth, Sulzbach) 433 Listed as WKIII but actually hodge-podge, guys from all over. 444 Sicherungsdiv from WKVIII (Breslau) 454 as above from WKVIII (Breslau, Wohlau and Straßburg too) 463 Ersatz with no affiliation, WK III 464 As above, WKIV 469 As above, WKIX 539 This was a zbV division, WK IV (Frankenberg, Glauchau, Tabor) 540 As above, WKXVII (Hainburg, Tabor) 542 WKI (Preuß-Eylau) 546 This is the 45th in early shape (Sperr), see 45. 600 A Russian division, formally from Freiw.Stamm-Rgt 4 but no WK. 604 A zbV division from WKXI, no specific affiliation. 605 As above, from WK I. 606 As above, no specific WK (hodge-podge), men transferred to 540 VGD eventually. 607 zbV again, this from WKVIII (Breslau). 610 zbV from WKIX, no specific affiliation. 613 Again zbV, no WK no affiliation. 650 A Russian division of the ROA again. As the other one above. 707 WKVII (Lindau) 710 WKX (Heide, Oldenburg) 711 WKXI (Braunschweig) 712 WKXII (Luxemburg, Saargemünd) 715 WKV (Baden-Baden, Tübingen) That ends your infantry list. Though like I said we see a lot of gaps in it. Thats probably wise, as a complete German OOB is a bit of a lifetime project I'll go see if I can find a beer and the strength to deal with the other lists. Cheerioops Dandelion

The Med? I knew you had two hu-uge sites, those listed in your sig, but The Med is new to me. Any link? By the way I noticed you wrote a Austria? on the regional affiliation of I.D.331. Though Wehrkreis was Vienna (or more precisely Amstetten in EII/130), the men were mostly (66%) Sudeten Germans, the component regiments formed in Pilsen (Plzen), Brünn (Brno) and Dresden (just Dresden, i.e. Saxons). The WK for GD was III. Ah well, I'll stop now Anyway, thanks for the input everyone. Does anyone have an idea of how the Johnson lmg worked out in field service? Cheerio Dandelion

Thanks King, that must be near record in replytime. Say, did the SSF have paradrop capability? Cheerio Dandelion

Minute detail I know, but does anybody know if the Johnson lmg saw service in Europe? I saw some note indicating that the US/Can 1.SSF used it, and I know this force has adept students in the forum, so I was wondering if anyone could confirm? And did any of the semi-automatics reach Europe? I know the Dutch colonials used it, but did the Metropolitan army use it as well? Cheerio Dandelion

Jade I really don't understand a thing here. All those numbers...what does it all mean? Cheeri Dandelion

Yac, Yes I see your point. I agree with Jon completely; too strong a bond to IRL will handicap you in the game. Compare the present CMBB forum thread with the guy who set up by-the-book firelanes to seal off streets. Correspondingly, I have faced gamers with not the first clue - nor desire to have any clue - about anything on WWII, who still fight very successfully in CM. Cheerio Dandelion

What type is it that they depict in the SPR scene? Cheerio Dandelion

Yac, I haven't read the book you ask about so take the following input for what it is. I own the Nafziger collection, i.e. the organisational charts for German armed forces. While a handy quick reference chart (this is how I use them), they are regrettably soaked with error and misunderstandings. Most of these are so obvious that I spot them without doublecheck, others more subtle. The errors I find take little research to clear out, and quite a few seem to arise from trivial language problems. Other errors, such as those found in introductory texts, I cannot explain. Quite frankly, at times, he seems to be fabricating or making assumption without basis just to fill gaps, rather than completing his research to the same effect. The impression I get is thus that research made is very superficial, if extensive, and that he'll make something up rather than go find a better source or admit he does not know, which makes me not trust him as a serious researcher. The collection (not the BFC book) is heavily overpriced. Probably because there are no competing titles available in English. Having written all that - I haven't even looked into his book on German tank platoons It might be top quality. Anyway it's not a lot of money so even if it is equally sloppy work it's no big loss. The actual German manuals weren't all that thick you know (well, the technical ones were but not the tactical). Principles were a few, easily grasped basic rules - but of course not as easily implemented correctly, that was the training and experience bit. Do you read German? Cheerio Dandelion

Jon, Blood transfusion was available at the HVP (Hauptverbandplatz - Main Dressing Station) at the earliest possible point for German casualites (a patient would by then have passed the VN and TVP). This was administred to patients unable to transfer to Feldlazaretten (Field Hospitals) only, those who could would be moved to the latter instead as the FL had more extensive blood transfusion capabilities. The HVP was located 6 to 10 kilometres rear of a frontline, which was also the typical distance of regimental headquarters. However, the HVP was not a regimental unit. It was set up by the divisional medical companies. Each such company could set up two HVP. Each company had a blood bank and like all other supplies of the division down to cartridges (and including the morphine, scopalamine, Ether, Eucodal, Evipan, Novocain, Chlorophorm, Clorethyl et cetera), it was measured to last 24 hours of full scale divisional battle. Needs beyond this had to be supplied from Armee (not Korps) level. The Armee level was basically a Wehrkreis (Homeland) supply source. The Fledlazarette was an Armee level unit, which included motorised surgical teams that could, if need be, reinforce a HVP, and bring along blood transfusion services (unlike the HVP personnel, the nurses adminstering transfusion at Armee level would be women, Red Cross personnel). This blood transfusion service organsiation was in effect as of 1937 (October 1st to be precise) and the preceding organisation was highly similar. It was changed in 1944 but not in a way affecting the blood transfusion service as such. Let me know if you need any further data on the German transfusion service. And of course, If somebody - anybody - would provide some type of at least vague description on what is meant with "fully functioning blood transfusion service" of a type unseen in other nations (or the armies of the same), this debate will be greatly aided. Alas, so far zip on UK organisation and assets, making this whole comparative study somewhat... complicated. By your definition the entire DAK was elite since it consisted only of the 15th and 21st, plus the extras gathered in the 90th, and a handful of paras, as far as Germans go. This might be. My opinion however is that they (15th and 21st) were line units of no discernable outstanding qualities of any kind. We see battallions surrendering en masse and several quite amateurish mistakes from these units, as we see from all ordinary line units. None of the units were hand-picked or in any other manner select, nor specially trained or equipped, and both were converted to Panzerdivisions only upon arrival in Africa. Basically just regular guys and run of the mill conscripts. The key issue on conceptions of the DAK is - again IMHO - that the UK/CW could not handle any German line unit of any type in a 1:1 situation until early 42 or so. At least judging from odds and outcome of the tactical confrontations of those campaigns (i.e. Norway, France, Greece and early Libya). So the UK/CW tend to feel everyone they oppose are elite I doubt that the DAK would have been noticed at all if deployed in the East. But of course, there is no way of knowing so it's a pointless doubt to feel. You're right - there might and might not be further information in the many texts you suggest we read but have not read yourself I guess We'll never know if you do not read them and tell us. Cheerio Dandelion

I find the 2" a constant harassment. I never get to play Brit so I wouldn't know how to use them. But I agree they should be outlawed. People use them on me. They're all over the place and they have basically the same function as sharpshooters or HE rifle grenades. Except they're ten times as many. They never actually kill anything. They wouldn't be half as annoying if they did. They suppress and they shield. And it is all so... irritating. In the moment you least need them to, they suppress your key weapons, such as machineguns holding attackers at bay, Panzerschrecks taking aim, officers spotting for (real) mortars etc. Voilá, across come their infantry and Panzers unharmed, and you get to watch them move. And if you manage to catch the Brits in the open, a moment ever so satisfactory when opposing decent foes such as the US, you can be &"%#¤ sure they'll answer with a volley of 2" - smoke or pom-pom - of unnatural accuracy and they all get away. In a present scenario Pbem they crossed 80m of open killing ground that I had covered with light machineguns - normally certain death to any foe - because we never got a clear shot in the face of that incessant, never ending rain of explosive and smoky peas coming on from all directions (and the following close combat did not go well). Whenever I move, 2" will halt or slow only one or two squads, in the most frustrating and annoying manner possible, shifting local superiority in that pivotal following firefight to their favour. Basically they are just everywhere, making life generally miserable. In fact, they aggravate me. I think it would be fair to say that I hate them. Germans have the 5cm early on, and a measure of untold joy is to have them return fire. You'll not kill any 2", but they won't suppress your key weapons either, and advancing enemies get caught in your arranged, unsuppressed crossfire. But the 5cm goes away, replaced with rifle grenades of not remotely the same effects in the game. Cheerio Dandelion

Grognard (Grognass) a) Person who, however brilliant a wargame becomes, remains forever sullen and discontented about the lack of historical detail. Person who, however bad a wargame becomes, faithfully plays the game for years anyway, c) Person demonstrating contempt of popular culture by carefully avoiding all pleasures of PC life, such as beautiful graphics, user friendly interface and fast loadtimes. Grognards are characterised by the display of unhealthy levels of interest in obscure detail. This might and might not be accompanied by impressingly uninteresting knowledge in the field in question. Only Grognards will find it interesting, sullenly impressed by the sheer level of obscurity reached by their colleagues. Game designers (paper or software) will occasionally make the mistake of addressing Grognards, in which case they will gather, and never go away. While useful for collecting enormous amounts of conflicting data, designers will generally find good reason to regret the mistake once the game is launched on the market. Of the ten to fifteen thousand or so Grogs gathered, not one will be entirely satisfied with the result, unless presented as a quite temporary measure on the path to perfection. The CM series was initially based on Grog feedback. It has - probably therefore - attained the never before acquired status among Grognards of being the least inadequate PC wargame ever. This in spite of the BTS/BFC consistent refusal to obseve code c) above. As a token of... well I'm not sure, the designers allow them to dwell in here in great number, grumbling. Cheerio Dandelion

Landing paratroopers, of all nations I should think, would by default walk the stick. The guy jumping last would head in the direction of the flight and the stick/squad would recollect by the guy who dropped first. The whole movement would be repeated in higher units until collected in companies and battallions. This movement, the forward surge, was apparently characteristic and German anti-paradrop tactics were based on the pattern. If you engaged the "front" of a drop, the paras would have time to collect themselves and grow increasingly stronger. Which was bad. If you were not a paratrooper. Of course, in a totally bungled jump not all men would be caught in the surge. But all in all, wouldn't even arriving parachuteborne paras come in bunches, and mainly from one general direction? Unless actually landing on top of the defenders, in which case I agree entirely with the abover speaker, in that they generally tended to die to a man. Cheerio Dandelion

Pressing discomfort at the thought of the enemy? Teuton profiling? Understatements, that fine British art of humo(u)r, is the one quality of which less actually is more. Mr Churchill probably was not aware that the French dipped their Tricolors in the Rhine as they reached it. Then again, maybe he was. Or maybe he just never found any of those reputedly superb British hygienic arrangements. Sergei, keep sharpening that pen, you're getting closer. Cheerio Dandelion

Are you sure about that.? What about Eben Emael. </font>

Oh they are not scared off so easily around here I've seen them endure ballistic periphernalia that makes this debate seem like a discussion you'd have with a cab driver in Paris, picking your teeth. The conflicting sources theme is a common one in this line of work. Were regulations enforced or ignored? Did assigned personnel fulfil their duty or wouldn't or couldn't they? We'll never know. But I do think we found an acceptable middleroad there, absorbing most information from both sources. I'd accept a suggestion to reduce manpower to 60-70% at Alamein if playing Axis, which I would have hesitated to do before our debate. Though not if the opponent suggested it with the motivation that the men were too high and mighty for hygiene As to fighting with disease in ones body - I think it's a fair illustration to start exhausted. The ruse of combat would perhaps mobilise reserves once it all began? Violating homes with various bodily fluids, yes Michael I have heard quite a few such stories. I grew up with them. Primarily about the Soviets but also about the US occupational forces perpetrating such and similar acts in Germany. Don't seem to remmeber such stories about Canadians though Maybe they were busy running around on their endless prairies, feeling free It lies in the nature of these stories that they cannot be challenged, since only the storyteller was there and the perpetrator is always anonymous. And there is no way of generally claiming nobody ever do such things - far fouler deeds are done. One has simply to nod and listen. Personally I consider them much like the stories of the pregnant women that keep getting gutted with their babies ripped out - another story that accompany every conflict I know except perhaps the Falklands war - as primarily an expression of intense dislike of the the enemy, rather than attempts at relating actual events. So I'm not saying it never happened. I'm just nodding and listeing. I share you hesitance about accepting that it was ever standard procedure to collective defecate in the living room of some nice old Italian lady. But of course, in an army of three million men, I'm sure you'd find a couple of guys not understanding why this is not a great idea. Cheerio Dandelion

Ahem, something went wrong with this post. I'll try again.

The community is dying slowly from the inside like an old tree, as the phrase goes. Which is a sad thing. Have to understand it though, the game looks and feels old and tired. While unchallenged in its genre, other genres have moved forward. Some of them several generations. They demand attention. Well I'll stick around. Where else are grogs wanted these days anyway. Yes I promise to not forget to turn the light off before I leave. Dandelion

No on the contrary Pheasant Plucker your posts are needed to complete mine, to give the units a very to-the-point and useful game relevant input. People buying for QBs will not be looking for background information at that moment, they need to know how units actually work in the game. So I have been waiting for you to complete the British tank series and start on the German units... Actually I am pondering if the background texts could and should not be placed in some other manner - Folke has also suggested this - so as to not drown the shorter, game related comments very much needed. I'll ponder it some more and send Folke a suggestion on this. Cheerio Dandelion

Michael There are many ways of looking at the Stalingrad campaign of course. The most interesting to me - if I had to pick one book - is the book of Heinz Schröter. He was the Kriegsberichter of the AOK 6 and was able to interview hundreds of participants. Before publication he sent the manuscript to friends of his for "co-authoring" to which they agreed, namely Gen. Fangohr (Ia of 4 PzA), Gen Koller (Ia of the Luftwaffe liason staff in Stalingrad), Gen Schulz (Ia of the HG "Don"), Col Selle (Pifü of AOK 6) and LtCol Toepke (Ib AOK 6). In addition he kept and use the pictures taken by AOK 6 Kriegsbildberichtern (they all died in the battle, Gehrmann, Heine, Herber, Jesse, Mittelstaedt). What you get from this is of course not the final truth in any sense, and not a word from the Soviet side and thus no good analysis on the campaign as a whole. But you do get a fascinating and absolutely heartbreaking insight of what the participants thought happenend, and how they felt about it. As there are a lot of staff officers involved, you get a lot of figures and numbers in the parcel, shedding light on a lot of things I didn't realise. Radio logs are also used in the book, i.e. transcripts of all transmissions made, including Luftwaffe air recon, with clockings. The book was financed by German industrialists immediately after the war, some of them overtly pro Nazi, some vehemently anti Nazi. The book is called "Stalingrad - bis zur letzten patrone". Don't know if it has ever been translated, but I am convinced you'd read it cover to cover unable to stop for sleeping or eating. And its a thick book... Good maps to, as a game related note there. The men were not aware of the higher purpouse of their sacrifice. They were all waiting for the promised relief, all the way up the chain of command, and when it became clear this would not arrive, that news stayed high in the CoC for obvious reasons. The men trusted their leaders and thought they would be rescued. But in fact they were abandoned. The Germans at home were clear on the sacrifice bit, because they read the papers and listened to the radio. In the movie, the men hear the radio speech declaring them already dead. If you follow papers day by day, the phrases of heroic sacrifice appear close to the end of the disaster, when the loss of AOK6 was identified as inevitable. There was a need to construct meaning and save political face. Of course, from a military point of view, finding great joy in the fact that it will take the enemy time to kill a quarter of a million of ones men - thus it will take some time before he can get to the guys running behind the guys being slaughtered - is, er, interesting. I find no accounts of anyone who bought the lie. Not even Hans Ulrich Rudel (a Stuka ace, war hero and convinced Nazi to his dying breath in 1982) believed in it, according to his own book "Trotzdem". And he was bordering halfwit, believing in just about anything anyone in authority told him. The message is fairly straightforward in its essence. Blind faith in your government, your officer, media or in anything at all will not only get you killed - that's the acceptable part for the rest of the world - it will also make you commit the crimes you sought to avoid with your pursuit of higher ideals. The scene is set to Stalingrad because it was a completely meaningless loss of life, serving no military purpouse of any kind, utilising to the extreme the servile, gullible and collective mentality of predemocracy Germany. The characters appearing are abstract and not "real". Characters in movies never are. Dialogues are not "normal". In a comparable movie, the Thin Red Line, characters are also not real and dialogue is on a philosophical level quite beyond any everyday conversation. That doesn't mean they do not reflect real people, feelings, thoughts and ideas. Just that these are portrayed and delivered in a far more deliberate and thought-through manner than normally possible. It also does not mean they speak in strange ways. Even while pondering the higher meaning of life, Pvt Witt retains his rural southern US accent making him feel very close and real. Its the same in Stalingrad. The men look and sound real, only the structure of the story reveals it is a philosophical debate rather than documentary. There is a real situation behind the accusation you mention. The "No, you are worse" dialogues that you mention. This is a conversation between General.d.A. Seydlitz and a battallion commander exactly five days before the end. Seydlitz is trying to comfort the man who no longer has a battallion with the fact that he did not vote for the present government, and the man answers that he is worse than the "Braunen" (translating to Brownies doesn't feel right), since no party official could gotten his men out of their foxholes to fight, only he could do that, and it was he who did it. This documented conversation has been used again and again, when debating the responsibilities of leadership. Not just the war, corporate leadership too, and so on. So Michael I do think you can safely watch the movie knowing that the environment - everything from haircuts to equipment, language to insignia - has been meticulously prepared (its not possible to recreate all details, which you as reenactor will be familiar with). The drama that takes place is not documentary but a conversation with you as a viewer. Some symbols are obvious such as the female, some are very subtle such as the relation between the enlisted men. The scene in which the major requires heroic self sacrifice from a soldier ("You owe me") has been very much debated (in the intrested medias that is), and this scene might not strike one as so strong. But pondering the continuation of that scene, you get all kinds of ethical questions coming back on you regardless of what stance you take. The next last radio transmit from AOK 6 headquarters in the southern enclave was logged exactly 0600 and read "Die 6 Armee hat kapituliert. Hoffentlich gibt dem Führer das Ende in Stalingrad Veranlassung, in Zukunft mehr auf die Ratschläge seiner Generale zu achten". [The 6th army has surrendered. Hopefully the end in Stalingrad gives the Leader reason to listen to advice from his Generals in the future]. In German media, a falsified message was printed instead: An den Führer! Zum Jahrestag Ihrer Machtübernahme grüßt die 6. Armee ihren Führer. Noch weht die Hakenkreuzfahne über Stalingrad. Unser Kampf möge den Lebenden und den kommenden Generationen ein Beispiel dafür sein, auch in der Hoffnungslosigkeit nie zu Kapitlurieren, dann wird Deutschland siegen. Heil mein Führer! Paulus, Generaloberst. Stalingrad den 29. Januar, mittags. [To the Leader On the yearsday of Your seizure of power, 6th army salutes You. The Swastika still flies over Stalingrad. Our struggle might show the present and future generations that if you never surrender, even in hopeless circumstance, Germany will win. Long live my Leader!] Yes that sounds equally corny in German as in translation. The northern enclave last logged transmit was 1406 hours february 2nd, from radio Fck 1913 (transmit 1711), saying "In Stalingrad keine Kampftätigkeit mehr". The very last transmit logged from Stalingrad as a whole? Well it was a Luftwaffe transmit not from within but from over Stalingrad, with no political edge to it, February 2nd 1235 hours (excuse my lousy translations throughout this text): "Cloud height five thousand metres, visibility twelve kilometres, clear sky, single small clouds, temperature minus thirtyone degrees, over Stalingrad smoke and red dust. Wetterstelle meldet sich ab, Gruß and die Heimat." It was received by armygroup Don HQ. In our time information is easy to come by, and questions can be asked, issues debated. Ignorance is a choice that requires some determination to stick to. My grandfather and three of his brothers were killed in the war, we are now a very small family like so many others. I honour him by feeling his absence. Not by pretending to speak in his name. That last section was not adressed to you Michael of course. Cheerio Dandelion

Thank you likewise Michael. Which I guess only proves we both need lives For some reason, what we are doing here is not considered real. IRL always means something that does not happend here. Opens up quite a philosophical perspective I think. Sure feels like I'm typing for real. Using swine as an insult is a tad bit personal for a combat situation. You don't shout "Molester!" or "Tax evader!" to an enemy soldier. Similarly, the title swine requires a certain, revoltingly disgraceful type of mischief to be earned. Not that I hold anything against the sweat beasts myself. When I hear them shout I think of Wolfgang Buddes squadleader Evers, with his eternal "Da haben wir verdammt viel Schwein gehabt!" or just "Schwein!". They made a few really nuts combat jumps together, and after most of them Budde is simply lying halfconscious knocked out on the ground, all is quiet and he's wondering if he broke something and what actually happened, and suddenly he hears from not afar the mutter "Schwein", when Evers realises he isn't badly hurt from the drop. Eventually, this makes you laugh, if for no other reason then relief. Don't know if you read the book but I have a feeling you just might have. Evers is the guy who in the Canadian army would keep saying "You lucky bastard!" to himself and others and never cease to be amazed people are not killed when they are so statistically supposed to be. I am often surprised when reading UK and US WWII accounts. Because the men sound so... German. Expressions and phrases used seem highly similar. We spoke of sausages before. Sausage, or Wurst, meant (means) "nothing". "Das ist (mir) Wurst" means that something is completely meaningless and uninteresting. The men uttered the word Wurst - among other occasions - when trying to shake a trauma off. Like when a buddy died. Exactly the way soldiers say "doesn't mean a thing" and try to blink away horror or heartbreak by repeating that until they believe in it, in Anglosaxon accounts. German for "whatever" as in "yeah sure, whatever" was (and is) "wie auch immer", another frequently encountered phrase among the soldiers in accounts. As is "something like that" in the ironic sense of "err, yeah, sure, something like that" (so etwas ähnliches). German for BS is quatsch, yet another very frequently encountered word. But if you want to dig really deep into the darker pits of German, listen in on the submariners in Das Boot. That is about the worst I've ever heard in a movie theatre outside of Hamburg red light districts. There is nothing naïve about that I assure you, and had they been anything but submariners I would have hesitated to believe in the scenes. Fortunately, the English subtitles in the DVD version simply abstains entirely from translating of a single of these horrid jokes and expressions If I retell or translate here, Martin will never ever allow me in here again. Stalingrad is a good movie, though not focusing on the documentary aspect of the Stalingrad battle or army life. Every man in it is a symbol of an aspect of German society, every scene is a message or question. Most characters are very abstract, or purely symbolic such as the Soviet female. The movie is the visualisation of our domestic debate on the err of our ways. How and why we turned out to be the bad guys when we always thought we were the good guys. My sole disappointment - I am open to debate on that one - is the one simplification I have a real problem tolerating (because it is so common). The People (enlisted men in the movie) are excused, almost apologised, whereas the Establishment (the officer aristocrats) are primarily charged with misguided loyalty and failed responsibilities, and the Party (the military police) have to carry the streak of evil all alone. As I see it, that's avoiding the issue. I like Die Brücke most of all warmovies. Hits me in the gut in that extremely painful, intense way. Feeling very real. Sort of manages to reach the essence of all questions in a single scene. Frontschwein yes, a compliment. I thought that was the equivalent of Frontovik? My Russian isn't all that 100. Frontschwein is positive, in sharp contrast to the downright hostile (I'll-kill-you-after-I've-completed-this-insult type hostile) Etappenschwein, but also much unlike nicknames of semi-affectionate type such as Spieß or Zahlmops, or the definately affectionate, almost passionate nicks such as Sani. Cheerio Dandelion

Ah yes, language thread, gotta love em I agree with Steiner. I cannot recall ever encountering any hatewords in orders or other documents, such as those very common in say French and US orders. The single most common term you meet is "Gegner", i.e. opponent. In East Front documents political terms are to be seen even in army documents, such as The Bolsheviks or The Reds (actually Rotarmisten, but I guess there is no Redarmyists word in English). In enlisted men's correspondence, I have seen a lot of The Others and in the case of the eastern front, Iwan. Hatewords are common in propaganda pamphlets in 1945 though. These lacked all finesse and were simply outbursts of incoherent nazi rhetoric. They tended to call everyone Jew or Sionist. Even Stalin was called Sionist Franzmänner is not a hateful term, its comparable with "Frenchies". The non-nickname term is Franzosen, as Steiner points out. Actually I believe it was the British themselves who started calling their troops Tommys, after the Thomas Atkins (or was it Atkinson?) character in what I believe was a Kipling text. The Germans press first used that as a derogatory term (during the Boer war I think, where they sympathised with the Boer), but it obviously changed entirely with time. The term Tommy is rather affectionate and part of that embarrassing, wholly unanswered Anglophile nerve of the collective German soul, the incensed sense of rejection of which is so easily converted into sporadic bursts of hatred every now and then. Significantly, in a conversation with a POW, as related in a British War Diary, a German officer called him Tommy until he was upset with him, after which he called him bloody "Engländer". The soldier found it hilarious, since he was an Irishman (or was it Welshman? Cannot immediately recall), but of course Germans back then called all people originating from he Atlantic Islands Engländer unless they were overtly wearing kilts and blowing the pipes (in which case they were Scots, known to be oppressed by the Engländer, and never the equally oppressed Irish or Welsh). So the point of the joke was sort of lost. The German relation to CW troops is interesting. I don't think I have seen such precisely defined prejudice as that directed against these men, for good and ill. From what I have found, German concepts of CW troops seems to have stemmed from WWI. Mixed wonderfully with romantic ideas. A positive aspect was the bizarre order of 1942 to not lock barrack doors with Canadian POWs in them, because the Germans believed them to be such freeroaming spirits that they would commit suicide if locked up. I'm serious. Also, Canadian POWs were not allowed alcohol even on festive occasion, in any amount. Because like native Americans, and children, they simply could not handle alcohol. And that's official, or was at least offical back then More tragically, both New Zeelanders and Canadians were reputed to not take prisoners and lots of unfounded stories about these men murdering German POWs circulated during the war. On at least three occasions that I know of, and probably lots more, CW soldiers were murdered in "avenging" acts for deeds imaginary. The almost medieval feud between the 12th SS and the Canadians bore marks of the same misconceptions with several stories of Canadian evil deeds circulating, just like men in the 5th Gebirgs felt animosity toward the Kiwis because of stories of New Zeelanders murdering POWs on Crete. C'est la guerre. Australians were also reputedly brutal and savage soldiers, but as they left early, I haven't found very many anecdotes about them in texts. No real nicknames though. Or hatewords. Canadians were simply Canadians and even the New Zeelanders were called that and nothing else AFAIK. Michael, I've got it. The term "Polack" is a derogatory German term for Pole (i.e. a Polish person). The Polish (non-derogatory) word for Pole is Polak. Thus both called Poles Pola[c]k. Though even the Poiles would be called Gegner. I am not 100% sure about the Polish here, but say 85. In movies Germans are often equipped with Vietcong type parlance ("degenerate capitalist bla bla") and they'll often use crosswords. To me, wartime German sounds slightly naïve and childish, perhaps it's the same with English for you Anglosaxons. The serious insult "Schurke!" simply does not carry the sting it once did. I guess audiences need to be reminded they fought for an evil cause, but amusing moments arise when they shout "Schwein!", which they do in movies and in certain PC Games with some frequency. Swine was used for luck back then. Like the French use of the Arabic Baraka! Paras would scream Schwein upon landing, to not break any bones. Well that was sure a lot of text about nothing I have to get a life over here. Cheerio Dandelion

JTCM Nice article there. I basically find him very interesting in the descriptive task, but strangely weak on analysis. He writes that the British army was the only one to enter the war with a blood transfusion service. While true that this was a separate and distinct service in the British Army (which I have now discovered), the exact same functions existed in both the French and German armies, at least since 1937 in the latter case, though baked into normal medical units. There might be differences that I am not capable of noting, being no doctor myself, but the basic functions of collecting, storing and transportation of blood seem to all be there. I’m not sure what he means by stating the British were the only ones to enter the war with a fully functioning blood transfusion service either. I know nothing about it, but he himself goes on to state that in Norway, France and Asia conditions did not permit the UK blood transfusion service to function. That was Britain’s entry. So I still don't get that part. It would be really nice getting some details on UK/CW organisation here. He makes very interesting observations about malfunctions in Axis medical care, which sound very credible to me. He notes the lack of medical supplies in the Axis army and the according state of the patients. He notes that the Axis was suffering severe problems with their channels of supply, which they certainly did. At Alamein, the long distances made the supply situation virtually untenable even with zero combat activity. Even in Tunisia, with very short supply lines, the Axis had one single road and one single sea-lane, impossible to defend effectively from concentrated allied attack. It all stands to reason that while having supply problems, the Axis would have reduced capacity of treating patients. Add to this the fact that the Axis was short on several critical medicaments even without Allied interdiction, such as sulpha and quinine – not to mention the wholly absent penicillin – and we get a credible picture of what conditions must have been like. This also lends credibility to his statement that medical problems were worse on the Axis side than on the Allied. So I now interpret the German and the US report stating that regionally specific medical issues hit both sides in like scale, by adding that both sides did not always have equal capability of dealing with the problem. But having made the observations, the author himself chooses to seek reasons for shortcomings in other factors than those that seem obvious. He ventures into the personal interest of Rommel (who did not administer the logistic situation) and German and Italian national characters. The latter gives air to stereotype prejudice, not otherwise commonly found in UK scientific articles. These sections do little but erode the credibility of the whole article, which is a shame because it is actually quite interesting. Also of great interest – I think – is the stating of how combat units regarded the medical consultants as bothersome. This seems to compute with the brief comment in my source that the prohibition on camping in wadis and oasis (how do you say oasis in plural, in English?) was often ignored. To a combat commander, anybody bothering him with any other priority than tactical consideration would probably appear to be “in the way”. It also reminds me of experiences with safety officers operating in ordinary, peacetime industries… But still I am not buying the High-and-Mighty bit. Simply because I have not seen this in any other context, and it sounds unlike the armed forces in question. There are other statements equally strange but more understandable. He states that the forces were balanced at Alamein, specifically mentioning the 15th (which was not an elite division btw), if it had not been for Axis sick rates. This is bordering the slightly amusing, since the forces were anything but balanced quite regardless of disease. But the author also expresses that his agenda is to shed light on the importance of combat medicine, and exaggerations of the significance of ones own service is commonplace both in personal accounts and post-war studies. It is a bit of a promotion text, and my speculation is that the presentation of the content of the book has been subject to displaying Amazing new facts to attract mainstream buyers (mainstream as compared to combat medicine grogs that is). So my guess is this book is actually a lot more interesting than this text would suggest. All in all then, perhaps it is after all motivated to have heavier casualty reduction (due to disease) in Axis units than in Allied. Cheerio Dandelion

Thanks JTCM, looking very interesting, I'll print that article and get right back when I've had a chance to read it properly. Cheerio Dandelion