SeaWolf_48
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Posts posted by SeaWolf_48
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After much thinking about the game, which is fun to do, I have come to the conclusion that the HQ units do not work like any other wargame HQ. What do I mean. Any other wargame the HQ's need to be along way away from harms way. They are weak and can be destroyed easily. Actually HQ's very seldom were destroyed, some were captured, but that was very rare, and usually when the army was beaten.
But HQ's never served as front line troops, look at any OOB or TO&E and they did not have the men or make-up to be in the front lines. In SC you can be lazy and let the HQ's fight like a front line corps. This I think is worng.
Another point is that you only have a few choises of Army commanders, Monty a 8, big joke, he never attacked unless he had three to one odds. Get rid of the names, to subjective, the Generals that lead Armies changed frequintly but the Army remains, Army names would be good enough, e.g. 1st Army Group, Army Group East or West, North or South, Ukraine, or whatever. Secondly, make HQ's indestructable and 0 points defense. The way they supply units now is good, but they should be able to supply more units. Germany attacked Russia with 3.5 mil men and only had 3 Army Groups, about five armies each, which was about 20 corps per Group, plus Air Support.
Where am I going, when armor makes a breakthru and it cuts off front line troops from the HQ, the HQ would have to retreat and the frontline troops would be cut off from instructions and supplies. This was what modern tank warfare was designed to do, otherwise we will be fighting WW1 tactics. Make the HQ's weak but unable to be destroyed, make them retreat when next to the enemy. The HQ is important for leadership and supplies but not for defense, but if cut off from it's troops the corps would be unsupplies and loose their fighting ability-say half strength or something less, and could not be reinforced.
I'm sure you have some comments.......
[ February 12, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]
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Very good point JJ about pilots bailing out over there own territory and being able to fly the next day for their country. I think it would be easy to do, but the programmers at SC are already pissed at you and me for trying to make the game more historic (there's that dreaded word).
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I have readed in "Stalingrad to Berlin" the fall of the German Wehrmache in the east, how Germany lost the oil from Romania in Sept 44, and only had oil from Hungury and synthetic fuel made in Germany (about 30% of their needs). They were still producing 3000 fighters a month but unable to train pilots or attack with Panzers because of the shortage of Gasoline. Is there anything in the game now that would reproduce this aspect of shortages in the Axis movement phase? In 44 the Americans tried to bomb Ploiesti several times to destroy the refineries, and their production. If in SC the Allies bombed the oil in Romania would this effect Germany as the Allied leaders felt it would do? If there was a strangle hold on the Third Reich, it was oil. England's choak hold was supplies by convoy, so the US built the Liberty ships, 2700 of them from June 42 thru Dec 44 (three every day), the most of one type of ship ever built. But when the 8th Air Force and Bomber Command put Oil refinning as number one on the list of ten most important industries to destroy in Germany, and destroyed all the refineries in german (they started building refinnig facilities underground) and Russia captured the oil in Romania, it was the end. That happened in Sept 44, and after the small resevers were gone the Wehrmache had on gasoline, Germany had no oil left the last 8 months of the War. The battle of the bulge proves that, many undestroyed german tanks left on the battle field with dry fuel tanks. Part of the reason Hilter attack around Budpest in Dec 44 was that oil refinning facilities in that area were important to the Germans.
Gasoline shortages were the same for the Allies. Not that they did not have enough oil, but because thier armies outran the supply of Gasoline. Both armies, Anglo-American and Russian armies were slowed down in 1944 because of supply shortages, mainly because they couldn't get gasoline to the front lines. Gasoline was shipped from Texas by Tanker Ships to England, where it was transfered by pipeline under the English Channel to Normandy, there it was put into tanker trucks on the 8-ball express to be shipped to the front lines. The American and British Armies had so many vehicles that gas had to be rationed to both armies. Monty wanted it for His drive into Germany, and Patton wanted it to get over the Rhine first. Ike biggest problem was where to put the gasoline rations, north to the Brits 2nd and Ca 1st armies, or south to the American 1st, 3rd, 7th or 1st FF armies.
Russian drives in 44 into the German fronts were never deep because of there lack of gasoline supplies getting to the front formations.
Should this be an important aspect to SC?
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Thanks Rommel great job
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Hi Bill, I'm playing your Case White scenario now also, thanks for giving Germans and England more bombers, much more fun and I think, historic.
Also your idea of shorter scenario's is a great idea. Playing a TCP game for three days is hard to do, If you have a life! Making shorter scenario's e.f. Sept 39 thru Jun 41 trying to limit or excede what Hitler did. Another Jun 41 thru Jan 43 the Russian years up to Stalingrad. And one covering the rest Jan 43 thru May 45, hopefully around 8 hours worth each.
Keep up the good fight.
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Hi Bill, I'm playing your Case White scenario now also, thanks for giving Germans and England more bombers, much more fun and I think, historic.
Also your idea of shorter scenario's is a great idea. Playing a TCP game for three days is hard to do, If you have a life! Making shorter scenario's e.f. Sept 39 thru Jun 41 trying to limit or excede what Hitler did. Another Jun 41 thru Jan 43 the Russian years up to Stalingrad. And one covering the rest Jan 43 thru May 45, hopefully around 8 hours worth each.
Keep up the good fight.
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For Terif
Terif, that's some great stuff about airpower and aircraft carriers. Do you give two research points to jets and /or industry? I usually give two points to jet, industry and tanks, and one to other research areas for axis; two points to jets, industry and anti-tank if allies. If I may ask how do you spread your research points.
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Okay, I like it Nonsuch, random scenario builder and unit builder. This would give endless challenges and types of games. Head to head play would be alittle iffy though.
Welcome to the meat grinder. Some of the ideas here are great, some stink. But like eating chicken, eat the meat and spit out the bones. If you never stick your neck out on this forum, we might miss out on some brilliant ideas, the rest go out with the garbage. I've had a few diamonds, but more turds.
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You make some good points Mr. Carthage about other comments but not mine? I think that SC in a way has a weather factor by having one turn in December and four turns in June.
Eye candy is pleasant, but marching one hundred miles in one hex and thirty in the next is goofy.
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Hay JJ, I think that a pic once in a while wouldn't hurt! Thay really improve the forum. There are some things in bells and whistle I really want to see in SC2!
Would like to see the T-34, which model, 41 model?
It wasn't the best tank, Tiger had to be the best, you know the story of Michael Whitmann, can you imagine the experience of Goodwood with a T-34?
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Hay JJ, I think that a pic once in a while wouldn't hurt! Thay really improve the forum. There are some things in bells and whistle I really want to see in SC2!
Would like to see the T-34, which model, 41 model?
It wasn't the best tank, Tiger had to be the best, you know the story of Michael Whitmann, can you imagine the experience of Goodwood with a T-34?
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Hi JJ, all good points, please give us a few pic's once in a while.
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Hi JJ, all good points, please give us a few pic's once in a while.
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Some common things I would like to see in SC2.
1) During Head to Head Play, let waiting player see his own units, and research charts, date, and purchase of units before turn starts. This would speed up play!
2) When saving game default to last name used, and the real day and date shown.
3) Change Quit box to small red button. A few times I have hit the quit instead of done button, and the game is gone (anyone else admit they did this).
4) Show statistics of how many units have been purchased, how many points have gone toward ships, air, and land forces for each country. Not a pie chart but a spread sheet for each country. Allow this option in tool bar to hide or see enemy numbers.
5) Show unit number on face of unit. Make it changable like now, but on the counter face. e.f. 1SS, 82AB, HG, etc.
6) Allow to see enemy research levels (delayed), when troops saw new models of tanks or planes they would tell the Intel Officers, and the info would get to all concerned. Also Britain and the US exchanged inventions, e.f. radar, sonar, prox fuse, penicillin, high octane gasoline, Merlin engine, and Enigma to mention a few. Research points could be exchanged between US and England, Germany and Italy.
7) Map hex really 50 miles. Produce a map that will be a classic that will be spoken of by gamers for decades to come around Chat forums. Accurate, different mountain sizes, mountain passes, real names of rivers, seas, and Islands. Allow Islands to be occupied and evacuated e.f. Rhodes, Majorca, Greenland, Gotland, Aland, Lesbos.
8) Because of radio traffic, Military Intel, code breaking, reccon planes, and spys some of the units (in a random way) during FOW should be visible to the opposite side. This could be increased by spending MPP's toward Military Intel research.
9) And all the other things we want, Murmansk convoy route, Airbonrne troops, units that retreat instead of stand and die, etc.....
Airborne troops in Third Reich would take away land and fortress bonuses.
[ February 06, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]
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We who have been playing wargames for a lot of years have a big disatvantage over newbies who know nothing of TR and other boardgames that had so many rules that you can't attack here or there until this or that happens. I have to unlearn so many things to compete in SC that it has become a great personal challange to me. That does not mean that I perfer the rules in SC, but it is a change. Possibly there could be two senarios, one open like it is now, and one Historic.
I am learning to live with the Dutch Gambit (it should be the Bulgium Gambit since Antwerp is in Belgium, Holland and Bulgium should be two different countries, not one as now, is this a leftover from Iron Fist? If a hex is 50 miles then Luxembourg should have one hex.). You must, let me repeat, must take Antwerp on the second turn or you loose. That's the way this game goes, you must start transfering several units from the Polish Campaign before she is conquered, if you are the Germans that is. That's not the way a real campaign would be run, but frick history and real strategy and martial tactics, you must unlearn campaign tactics (blitzkreig tactics demanded Air, Artillary, Panzer and Infantry coordinated attacks against the enemy with overwhelming force, superior firepower, till the objective was taken- not draining off troops, tanks, and airplanes before your mission is complete) and learn the mechanics of this game. I know, wa wa wa....
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I don't know if this will ever fly, so here is my two cents.
Diplomacy is a very subjective item. Some countries have good diplomates as leaders and some don't. Some countries will enfluence their neighbors, others won't. Events, percieved victory, military power enfluence countries to act a certain way. So how do you create a standard to go by? At the beginning of the war, Germany had the best propaganda machine, followed by England (this of course is a subjective analysis). Dr. Goebbels in the thirties saw the power of the Silver screen. He created in the minds of Germans that Hilter would bring them three things
1) Stability, thus in all the movies of the Nazi leaders and people, he showed them together healthy and with oneness of heart, and how all should join the cause. Every moving picture show happy content young people all wearing the same clothes, strong and happy. Germany was in the middle of one of the worst depressions in modern times. This vision was reassuring to the common man.
2) Strength with Leadership, goose stepping Nazi's marching down every street, very strong, arrogant, unstoppable, in the thousands. There is power in the news reels showing 100,000 german soldiers standing in the sports arena giving Hilter allegence. Germany at that time had a very weak Weimar Government (some call it a democracy, I don't) under Hindenberg- a real doufus.
3)Purpose, the reason for the raise of the german people was to be the masters of all others. If you feel that you are superior to someone else you have an edge (as opposed to feeling inferior). The holy purpose of the Arryan race was to be the masters over the other inferior races of peoples around Germany. Germans are the best looking, smartest, strongest, fastest, pure people on the face of the earth, no one can stop a people with a vision, and with the truth of who they are. (wow, where do I join, just joking, in reality the Arryan race is a Myth, never existed).
My point is that propagnada and diplomacy are connected, they are perceived truths and are powerful. How to give a factor number to German diplomacy is the question. Also how good were the Intel Agencies.
Ger Hitler, Ribbentrop= 100 DP's
UK Churchill, Eden= 80 DP's
USSR Stalin, Molotov= 70 DP's
It Mussolini, Ciano= 60 DP's
USA Roosevelt, Hopkins= 50 DP's
Jap Hirohito, Tojo= 40 DP's
Fr Reynaud, Clouseau 20 DP's
Ger Abwehr 80 DP's
UK MI-5 100 DP's
USSR NKVD 40 DP's
It MI 30 DP's
USA OSS 70 DP's
Jap MI 50 DP's
Fr Fifth Bureau 20 DP's
[ February 06, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]
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I don't know if this will ever fly, so here is my two cents.
Diplomacy is a very subjective item. Some countries have good diplomates as leaders and some don't. Some countries will enfluence their neighbors, others won't. Events, percieved victory, military power enfluence countries to act a certain way. So how do you create a standard to go by? At the beginning of the war, Germany had the best propaganda machine, followed by England (this of course is a subjective analysis). Dr. Goebbels in the thirties saw the power of the Silver screen. He created in the minds of Germans that Hilter would bring them three things
1) Stability, thus in all the movies of the Nazi leaders and people, he showed them together healthy and with oneness of heart, and how all should join the cause. Every moving picture show happy content young people all wearing the same clothes, strong and happy. Germany was in the middle of one of the worst depressions in modern times. This vision was reassuring to the common man.
2) Strength with Leadership, goose stepping Nazi's marching down every street, very strong, arrogant, unstoppable, in the thousands. There is power in the news reels showing 100,000 german soldiers standing in the sports arena giving Hilter allegence. Germany at that time had a very weak Weimar Government (some call it a democracy, I don't) under Hindenberg- a real doufus.
3)Purpose, the reason for the raise of the german people was to be the masters of all others. If you feel that you are superior to someone else you have an edge (as opposed to feeling inferior). The holy purpose of the Arryan race was to be the masters over the other inferior races of peoples around Germany. Germans are the best looking, smartest, strongest, fastest, pure people on the face of the earth, no one can stop a people with a vision, and with the truth of who they are. (wow, where do I join, just joking, in reality the Arryan race is a Myth, never existed).
My point is that propagnada and diplomacy are connected, they are perceived truths and are powerful. How to give a factor number to German diplomacy is the question. Also how good were the Intel Agencies.
Ger Hitler, Ribbentrop= 100 DP's
UK Churchill, Eden= 80 DP's
USSR Stalin, Molotov= 70 DP's
It Mussolini, Ciano= 60 DP's
USA Roosevelt, Hopkins= 50 DP's
Jap Hirohito, Tojo= 40 DP's
Fr Reynaud, Clouseau 20 DP's
Ger Abwehr 80 DP's
UK MI-5 100 DP's
USSR NKVD 40 DP's
It MI 30 DP's
USA OSS 70 DP's
Jap MI 50 DP's
Fr Fifth Bureau 20 DP's
[ February 06, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]
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Well done Jersey John, you have really hit a homerun with your annalistic review about the economics of the minor countries around Germany.
Since SC is an economic game, your points are very strong for giving support from the neutrals, especially the US.
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Well here is the Readers Digest version of one of the most intresting aspects of WW2. Yugoslavia has about ten different ethnic peoples within her borders. After Germany conquered her in May of 1941 the nation became roughly three different areas. In the Northwest were the Croats, a Catholic area somewhat loyal to Catholic Italy and Nazi Germany. The second area in the Northeast was Serbia, which was made up of bearded Eastern Orthodox Serbs. The third area the rest of Yugoslavia was made up of a mixed bag of ten differnt peoples. This last area is where Tito and his Partisans controled.
In Croatia there lived strangle enough Cossacks who had fought against the Red Army in the Russian revolution, and formed the XV Cossack Cavalry Corps and mostly fought against the Partisans. These Cossacks surrendered to the British at the end of the war, but under pressure from the USSR were handed over to the Soviets Army and all were exicuted or died in Siberia. The Croatian Army loyal to Germany was called the Ustashi (the rebels) and lead by a Fascist named Ante Pavelich. He started enthnic cleansing in Croatia of all Jews, Muslims, Gypsies, and Eastern Orthodox Serbs. His men raped, tortured, raped, killed, and raped (they liked rape) 750,000 people, which sickened the Local German Occupation Authorities. Pavelich's Army was around 100,000 men, of which 50,000 (one corps) fought in Russia, the rest fought against the Partisans.
The second group were called the Chetniks (they took their name from the Cheta, the 19th Century Group who fought against the Turkish Occupation forces), and were mostly Eastern Orthodox Serbs. They were lead by Army Colonel Drazha Mihailovich, a royalist who wanted to perserve the Monarchy. The Chetniks started off fighting the Germans, but after the brutal repercussions of 100 to 1 killings of innocent men, women, and children, for each German soldier killed they became neutral and even started to fight against the Partisans instead of the Germans. In 1941 they numbered around 15,000, in 1942 around 40,000, and in 1943 and 44 around 90,000. Britian started sending supplies to the Chetniks, but after a year stopped and only sent supplies to the Communist Partisans.
The last group the Partisans (the spanish name partidas which was a group of Spainish Guerrillas that harassed Napolean) was first used here in Yugoslavia. The Partisans were lead by a man called Tito, a Communist, his real name was Josip Broz a Croatian-Slovene peasant. He served in WW1 with the Austro-Hungarian Army and was captured by the Russians. While working on the Trans-Siberian railway as a prisoner of war during the Russian Revolution he became a Communist. Tito became the Partisan leader after the Germans and Italians took over Yugoslavia and raised about 12,000 partisans in 1941. In 1942 his army was around 45,000 men, in 1943 140,000, and in 1944 around 300,000.
The Russians and the Partisans liberated Yugoslavia in late 1944 thru early 1945. A pro-soviet government was established, and all other guerrilla groups were extinguished. Of course reprisals took place for things done during the war.
The Italians had 19 divisions serving in Yugoslavia until their capulation in May of 1943. Germany had 60,000 second line troops there until mid 1942, Hilter wanted to make an example out of the Guerrillas (Operation White) and sent two first rate Mountain divisions from Russia. Later when Italy fell, Germany had 120,000 men in Yugoslavia, troops needed in Russia. During Operation Black in 1943 when Italy surrendered, Germany had about 150,000 men there.
The Germans could never control all of Yugoslavia at one time, but thru collaberation with Croats, Serbs, Italians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, and their own forces they did a thoroughly terrible job of managing this area of the Third Reich.
Since our map is divided when Poland falls and becomes the General Government(part of Germany) and annexed to the Soviet Union. When France is conquered and is divided into Vichy France and German Occupied France, how about Yugoslavia divided according to her historic distibutions describe above. One Pro-Nazi Government (Croatia), one semi-neutral area (Serbia), and one Partisan area.
[ February 03, 2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]
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The dismemberment of Yugoslavia
Until August 1943 Italy had held the most territory, the western third of Croatia, Montenegro, an enlarged Albania, and two-thirds of Greece. Germany had held northern Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia around Salonika, a strip of Greek territory on the Turkish border, the Piraeus, the islands in the Agean, and Crete. Bulgaria had occupied western Thrace and Yugoslvia Macedonia. Hungary and Romania had each taken a slice out of Yugoslavia north of the Danube. Croatia, including Bosnia and Hercegovina, was a semiautonomous state under Dr. Ante Pavelic and his Ustasi Movement. After Italy surrendered, Germany had taken over the Italian zone; Bulgarian area had been enlarged somewhat; and puppet governments had been established in Albania and Montenegro to match those in Serbia and Greece.
This is what really happened in Yugoslavia during the war. No game has ever been accurate about this part of the Third Reich, this information is from "Stalingrad to Berlin" by Earl F. Ziemke, Military Heritage Press. Page 365.
It's late and I want to finish describing the make-up of the three guerrilla groups in Yugoslavia tomarrow.
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Those who don't try never succeed!
May God comfort the families of our brave fallen Astronauts.
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SeaWolf (Axis with 200 bid) concedes to Condor. He used the Dutch Gambit and dug in, couldn't crack it, hate that senario.
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Here is an interesting article if found in "The Historic Encyclopedia of World War II".
Numbers in US Billions of Dollars for 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945: and total.
USA, 1.0, 1.0, 4.5, 23.5, 37.5, 50.5, 40.0: 158.0.
UK , 3.5, 4.0, 6.5, 8.5, 11.1, 12.0, 7.4: 53.0.
USSR, 3.5, 7.0, 8.5, 10.0, 13.9, 14.1, 10.0: 67.0.
France, 2.5, 3.5, 0, 0, 0, .5, .5: 7.0.
German, 5.0, 6.0, 6.0, 9.8, 13.8, 16.5, 7.9: 65.0.
Italy, 1.0, 1.0, 1.5, 1.5, 1.0: 6.0.
Their diagram does not show Allied or Axis minors.
Notice that the United States in 1944 produces almost as much as UK in one year, than UK's 7 years.
If you use these numbers, Germany has to win the war before 1944 or she is burried by economic might!
[ January 31, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]
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The Russians were not ready for June 22, it was a supprise to them, their airforce was destroyed in a few days, and the German PanzerBlitz cut thru them like a hot knife thru butter.
However, I think that their troops were distributed better than in SC's openning for the Ruskies. Jersey is right that they rebounded after about four months with green troops over the 1200 mile front. The Russian winter saved their butts, we all know about that winter and what it did to the Germans. Again, do we care about historic applications, or the mechanics of the game.
Battle of Britain Effect
in Strategic Command 1
Posted
To Liam
Well, the Spitefire. Is this the same subject as JJ's topic?
Anyway can't resist.... The Spitefire was a great plane, but not that better than the Me-109f or g model. The spite was slower than the 109 above 10k feet, by about 25 mph. Later models of the 109 were even faster than the f and g models. Germany produced the 109 fighter thru the whole war (6 years), and the firepower of the 109 much greater. They were used to attack B-17's because of their 20mm cannons. I don't have my books with me now but I will confirm all stats tonight. Also German air tactics were also better than the british Vic formation, which they changed later in 1941 to the german four finger or lose duce formation. The german fighters would have done much better if they would have had drop tanks, which they did recieve later.
I've read a lot on this subject, both german and american writers (and some British), about which plane, which tactics, which training was the best.
Here it becomes subjective....
Best plane P-51D most kills for fighter, longest range, fastest speed. Best fighter in Europe with good tactics.
Best tactics, German, adapted by the US
Best training, USAAF pilot had 500 hours of training before combat, T-38 one of the best trainers.
Best fighter arm during the war, US Navy (Marine) fighter formations. Navy pilots are the best, learning to land on a carrier weeds out the weak.
Both the F-4u and F-6F with navy tactics and training would be hard to beat.
However the most german fighters shot down was not by a fighter, but the B-17.