Skipper

> Stalin then charged him with some crime > (for taking away Stalin's fame and glory) > and had him put in jail Well, Stalin actually sent him to command a relatively unimportant military district. It was also Stalin's own decision to let Zhukov command the Victory Parade. Yes, after the war Zhukov was not needed anymore, and so it was a semi-honorable exile - that's the way dictatorships operate.

> Now who said something about using a 50cal > MG to snipe with? Come on speak up? Soviet AT rifles were sometimes used for this purpose, too. > Realistically, they will only get 2 or 3 > shots off at the most in a 30-45 minute > scenario Depends. Zaitsev's detachment (iirc, it was called 64th army shiper school) once deflected a company-sized German attack. They did it by killing all officers and NCOs in a matter of three minutes or something like that. It was an experiment. > So, I am just in awe of anyone being able > to shoot at those ranges. Yup, me too.

> Handy things like the IS-1, 2, T-34-85, > SU's and others will take care of that, > much like they did in real life. To quote Lt.Col.Matveev, brochure "Combat methods of tankers", Voenizdat 1942: "Besides, it is necessary that our tankers, avoiding direct engagements with enemy tanks and artillery, try to destroy them by the weapons of own infantry and artillery." Repeat after me: THE MAIN KILLER OF TANKS IS AN ANTI-TANK GUN. When I say "the main", I am talking about something like 60%. The rest are distributed between tanks, mines, infantry and aviation. It is not so in your CM fights? Well, you have to learn proper tactics then

I dont remember where, but somewhere I saw a big article about soviet tank recovery practices, and it was apparently just as big a deal for soviet tankers as for german. Statistics of KO'd tanks returned to service looked quite impressively. As for captured Panthers, if they could be restored, it was a common practice to put "dismounted" crews in them. Sometimes, these were put together to form tank killer platoons. While looking for the info on repair units, I came across an article which described how in April 1942 the whole dismounted tank batallion (107th separate, Leningrad front) that had no opportunity to get new tanks anytime soon went on the mission to find and restore KO'd tanks. They ended up with the following OOB (as of 5 July): 1 KV, 2 T-34, 1 BT-7, 2 Pz-III, 1 Pz-IV, 3 StuG III and 1 Pz-I. Here is a photo from that article:

Speaking of AARs. +++ At 11:00 defended positions were approached by two german "Type-5" [Tr: soviet designation for Pz-V] tanks, very much resembling our medium tank, but with long gun... Sgt. Golovin's crew (76 mm ATG), defending the crossroad nearby "" grove, opened sudden fire from short distance... new german tanks stopped, one of them caught on fire... crews did not manage to abandon the tanks. After the engagement, 2 to 5 holes from 76-mm rounds were found in sides of damaged "Type-5" tanks." Another one (this time, from award citation): "On March 26... conducting reconaissance, Lt.Jr. Pegov spotted a column of enemy "Panther" tanks. Ordering the driver to reverse into a bush, comrade Pegov loaded the gun and waited. When the leading tank was at 200 m distance, the Lt.Jr destroyed the leading tank with a side shot, and then damaged track on the second vehicle, thus blocking the road for the rest of the tanks, thus practically disrupting enemy's counteroffensive..." The funny thing here is that the tank Lt.Jr. Pegov was commanding was T-70. Selected AARs dont demonstrate or illustrate much of anything but the fact that the war is not won or lost by machines, but rather by the men who fight in them.

Have to go to sleep. Reverting on mobility and what was in response to what some time next week (heck, it's gonna be one of those above mentioned 72 hours weeks, I guess). As a final note, M.Svirin mentioned in his article on Pz-V that AAR's of soviet units who met fresh new Panthers on Kursk Salient are written in a far less exciting manner than AARs about first encounters with Tigers.

> I have heard arguments that in the end it > is Germany that has won the war, and maybe > this is on a more philisophical level, but > it is interesting to think about. You do know, I assume, what was on the books for the local population of eastern territories, if nazis were to gain the upper hand? It wasn't exactly the "life goes on" situation. USSR subsequently lost another war to another adversary, but it was quite another story. I could say that after that one life goes on. For yours truly, at least. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Skipper ]

> I disagree, I believe how the vehichle is > designed & it is employed defines the > class & why should I compare a Soviet > Heavy Tank to a German Medium? it's realy > apples to ornges & an old T-34 affindo > argument. Because if you want to compare Pz-V to a T-34, you should compare them a tank vs a full platoon. That's the price difference. > Germany was way outnumbered in population > to be a treal factor in competing with > Russia Germany + France + Czechoslovakia + Austria + all those other places under German control weren't. They didn't have to relocate half of their heavy industry, too. And they were not devastated nearly as badly in the WWI aftermath top start with. And Germany was a top industrial power for a hundred years, while 1920-s Russia was an illiteral agricultural country with NO heavy industry to speak of. The main reason why USSR outproduced Germany during the war was not the headcounts - it was the hard work in pre-war years and even harder work throughout the war. 12 year old turners, 72 hours working weeks and such. As the slogan put it "Everything for the front, everything for the victory". Or another one: "Medals for combat and for labour are made from the same metal".

> the old Russian addage that, 'quantity has > a quality all it's own' Authorship of this "old russian adage" is commonly attributed to Iosif Stalin.

> That's because the way 1 country decides > to classify anothers tank is a moot point. Weight is not a moot point at all. It is one of the main tank's specifications. Basically within a given technology level weight is a nice aggregate of firepower, mobility and protection. And cost. And if you want a soviet design "similar" to Panthers, you really should think of the IS. > just as the Soviet's feilded the ad hoc T- > 34-85 in response to the Panther No. T-34-85 was not a response to Panthers. Anyhow, my point was that Panther was expectedly more capable - because outgunning a T-34 was the first item on the client specification. Basically, it was all they cared about. > The Panther when running was superiop in > all aspects mobility wise to both the T-34 > models, Ie, compare performance data > between the 3 tanks. I guess, we have a terminology problem here. I was talking about cross-country ability. Freak: > Without a doubt. The German design is > known for it sophistication and beauty. I love BMW, too. Apparently, sophistication and beauty is not the most important characteristic in a mass-produced fighting machine of a total war. > Yeah well thats what happens when ya win a > war. Yup. And in a war like the Great Patriotic one - it is all that really counts.

> Then again, I dont remember either and Im > from the very nation that was attacked. I would expect something like that from a young russian american, but from a russian american WARGAMER??? Buddy, you surprised me. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Skipper ]

Soviet infantry and artillery officers preferred trophy Zeiss binoculars to the standard issue ones. That's a hard fact. OTOH, I don't think that the difference in optics quality has anything to do with firing accuracy. If you can see a target in crosshairs, it doesn't matter after that. Optics quality does play a role in the spotting abilities. In reallife a tank position was much more important than optics. Ie, a tank sitting in defensive position would always see the other guy earlier.

Panther was in many respects a more capable tank than T-34-85, but... 1. Somehow, noone mentioned here that the Panther was considerably heavier than the the T-34. To the point that pre-war soviet classification puts them in different categories - Panther as a heavy tank, T-34 as a medium. 2. Besides, Pz-V was developed as an ad hoc german "reply" to the T-34. It happened few years down the road and german engineers had more than a year to study T-34 in and out. 3. Panther's mobility wasn't better at all. Reliabiilty-wise, by the time Panther was first seen on the battlefield, T-34 saw 2 years of combat and had all its teething problems sorted out. 4. Panther was MUCH mopre expensive and technologically complicated to build. 5. Finally, I dont think I'll ever see a Panther in the setting like this (and you know why): Caption says: "To creators of the legendary tank T-34". I think, there are several dozen memorial T-34s around Russia. [ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Skipper ]

Heh, if I could learn all those two dozen varieties of the Sherman, you should have no problem with learning three or four different models of T-34, should you?

1940 OOB was implemented in most regular formations by June 1941, but newly formed rifle divisions were equipped differently - eg, a lot more Mosins in the mix. SVT was a good rifle.

Yup, that was a tough decision. How to translate "Petrovich" without a two pages commentary?

Just finished translation of this little gem at request of my wife, who works in a huge multinational software development firm. Thought that many people would enjoy this, including BTS (who will lock it anyway). Hey, who reads the General Discussion board? Btw, if anyone spots any language mistakes (i am not a native english speaker, after all), plse email me at alex__v@hotmail.com. +++ "If builders constructed buildings same way as programmers write programs, the first passing woodpecker would destroy the civilisation" (Vainberg's Second Law) IF PROGRAMMERS CONSTRUCTED BUILDINGS 1.03. Hurray! We are offered a large contract to build 12 stories apartment block. Everybody is wildly enthusiastic. Drank 2 boxes of beer. [Tr.: 1 box = 10 liters] 2.03. Client doesn’t like expression "rather soon". He wants specific dates. Ignorant people, those clients, don’t understand a thing about high technologies. 3.03. Discussed deadlines. Drank 3 boxes of beer. B.B. says that it's a 4 months job. In practice, therefore, it will be 8. As a result, put in the contract 12. Although we'll hardly finish it quicker than in 16. 4.03. Celebrated contract signing. 5.03. Celebrated contract signing. 6.03. B.B. went to the shop to return the bottles [Tr: and get back deposits]. 7.03. Continuing celebration with the money that B.B. gained. 8.03. Celebrating 8th of March [Tr.: Women Day in Russia]. There are no women in the company, so nobody spoils the celebration. 9.03. For a long time were trying to recall what did we celebrate yesterday. Alex came and said that it's probably time to start working. Asked him to bugger off. Playing Quake. 1.04. Sidorov came and said that it is time to start working. Who does he want to fool with his Fools Day joke? 2.04. B.B. also says that it is time to start working. Are they conniving with each other?! Built a fence around the site and hanged beautiful posters "Construction by Domostroy Co (www.domostroy.ru)." Playing Quake with the warm feeling of fulfilled duty. 20.04. Client visited, asked how is it going. Sat him at a computer, fired Quake and let him kill us all. He left extremely satisfied. However, it seems that it is indeed time to start working. 21.04. Discussed the project. Sidorov proposes large-block architecture. B.B. says that blocks are cumbersome, attach to each other poorly, have a lot of unnecessary stuff, and as a matter of fact nobody knows what are the cracks they can have inside. He also states that building from large blocks is for complete lamers; insists that everything must be built the old-fashioned way, from bricks, even though it'll take much longer. Alex proposed the most radical way. He says that we shouldn't build the 12-stories apartment block at all, instead we should build several dozens of wooden cottages and connect them with an underground tunnel. Supposedly, it is fashionable in the West today. Reminded him that the client specifically required 12 stories apartment block. He screamed and shouted that clients are dumb by definition and only complete lamers listen to them. At the most interesting stage of the discussion we ran out of beer. Suspended until tomorrow. 22.04. Tried to resolve the dispute by Quake duel. Alex with his cottages was knocked out at once, but B.B. and Sidorov made a draw. As a result, each of them will build his half according to own plan, and afterwards we'll try to connect all this so that it stands. 23.04. Began construction work. Everybody is wildly enthusiastic. 30.04. Ground floor is ready! Showed it to the client. He wondered why different rooms have different ceiling height, why bricks are falling off from walls and why the building has no entrance door and it is necessary to climb into a window. Explained him that these are limitations of a demo-version. Leaving for the holidays [Tr: 1, 2 and 9 May are public holidays in Russia] feeling proud. 10.05. B.B. sobered up first and started cursing. We though that Alex drank all the beer. As it turned out, it was even worse. B.B. recalled that we forgot to lay the foundation. It is, of course, described in project specifications, but as everyone knows, only complete lamers read project specifications. 11.05. Demolished the ground floor. Everyone is annoyed. On the other hand, it is good that we didn’t start working earlier, otherwise a lot more labor would be wasted. 11.07. Working. B.B. is finishing the first floor, and Sidorov the fourth. Alex has built the elevator shaft up to the eighth, it is sticking out and staggers ominously in a gust. Installed temporary wooden supports. 17.07. Alex is building the attic and roof. Because upper floors are not finished yet, he has to build them on the ground. We'll hoist them with a crane afterwards. At least, Alex hopes so. 13.08. Some Sidorov's blocks do not attach. The gap is more than a meter wide. There is no properly shaped block to plug it up. Sidorov summoned B.B. and proposed to close the gap with bricks. B.B. announced that he is up to the eyebrows in his own work, and that without knowledge of blocks internal architecture it is not possible to do anything at all. 14.08. Broke up a few blocks, so that B.B. could study their internal architecture. B.B. is cursing, shouting that designers of the blocks are complete lamers. 17.08. B.B. plugged the gap. Truth be told, the offending blocks were warped in the process, but never mind. We had to pull electric wire out of both blocks and tie it on the outside. B.B. took some electric tape, made a few rolls around the knot and assured that everything will work, at least as long as there is no rain. 1.09. Concrete factory started to produce new blocks, with improved durability and heat retention characteristics, with built-in closets. They are also incompatible with the previous blocks neither in shape nor in size; besides, they are three times heavier. Sidorov is eager to break down everything we've already built and rebuild with new blocks. Hardly managed to talk him out of it. Anyway, the foundation would not sustain such a load. What kind of architecture were they thinking about, these factory guys?! 16.09. Alex ran in with a 'great idea'. Proposes to make all windows in the building resizable. Says that the client will be ecstatic. Told him to calm down. 2.10. B.B. made it to the fourth floor. Is very proud. Brought to his attention the fact that his wall is tilted 40 degrees. He was cursing, shouting that we are all complete lamers and don't understand anything. Afterwards, promised to think about it. 3.10. Client visited. Asked why is the wall tilted 40 degrees. Explained him about Coryolis force. He listened carefully, than said that he, of course, is not an expert in the construction business, but there is a house nearby his office, built by the same specifications, and the wall there is straight. Damn! I hate smart clients! Then this idiot Alex mentioned about his resizable windows. Client, naturally, loved the idea and now insists that we do it this way. Double damn! 4.10. Asked Alex if we'll have to rebuild everything thanks to his windows. He said no. Allegedly, standard blocks have such undocumented function. Naturally, it does not apply to the brick part. B.B. is categorically against. 5.10. B.B. admitted that there is indeed a problem with the wall. Says that he laid some brick somewhere the wrong way. But to figure out which one is the culprit, he must go through them all. And it will be easier to break everything down and build anew. 6.10. Were persuading B.B. that he already has no time to build everything anew from bricks. Showed him estimations on a calculator. B.B. was cursing, shouting that calculator was invented by lamers. Finally, agreed to build with blocks and left to drown his sorrows in booze. 8.10. Demolished the brick half. Incidentally damaged the other half. The whole construction is squeaking and reeling menacingly. Strengthened with wooden supports and went to play Quake. 17.10. B.B. returned from his booze session. Working. 7.11. Celebrating November 7th [Tr: Communist Revolution Day in Russia], or whatever it is called now. We have no communists in the company, so nobody spoils the celebration. 15.11. Recalled that our hoisting crane can only reach 7th floor. Sent Sidorov to find a new one. Playing Quake. Alex won a deathmatch against B.B. Young generation growing! 24.11. Sidorov returned. He could not find a crane, but found a very cool excavator. Proposes to dig a deep pit and build not upwards, but downwards. Says that it is nowhere in the contract that all 12 stories must be above the surface. Hardly managed to talk him out of it. 25.11. Organised a brainstorming session on the crane problem. Solution came with the last bottle of beer. The main construction work is suspended. Now building 4 stories nearby. We'll pull our crane onto its roof! 25.12. Celebrating catholic Christmas. There are no Catholics in the company, so nobody spoils the celebration. [Tr: in Russia, 31 Dec, 1, 2, 7 and 13 Jan are public holidays] 14.01. Don’t remember anything. Head is aching. Guys, what is the year now? 2.02. Uff… Looks like we are finishing the last floor. Tomorrow will fit Alex's attic and roof. 3.02. Alex is a lamer. The roof is slipping all the time. For the time being, propped it up with the crane. Thinking about what to do next. 4.02. Alex is arguing that he is not guilty. Just that Sidorov's 12 stories are 4 meters higher and 5 meters wider than B.B.'s 12 stories. As it turned out, they were building from different blocks. Yet, Alex is a lamer anyway, because his roof doesn’t match either of them. His elevator shaft, by the way, doesn’t match anything, too. 5.02. Patching up, strengthening and widening the roof. B.B. says, it will stand as long as there is no snowfall. 7.02. Snowfall. 10.02. Nailed the roof together from plywood sheets. Painted it to look as steel. Let's hope that the client doesn’t notice. 11.02. Tested the elevator. It stops between floors, but it is possible to get out of the cabin. On even floors by crawling, on odd by a pull-up. Must remember to describe it in the manual. 12.02. By the way, the elevator is extremely slow. B.B. curses everyone as lamers and plans to do some optimization. 13.02. B.B. optimised the elevator. It sped off, went through the roof and flew nobody know where. Thanks God, the roof was from ply. After this incident, elevator shaft collapsed. Obviously, we forgot to replace wooden supports with something more solid. Never mind. Walking is good for health. 15.02. Doing the paintwork. Painters and plasterers mysteriously disappear. Asked the subcontractor to send in some more. 17.02. It turned out that due to Sidorov's mistake doors on floors from 1st to 5th can be opened only for entrance, but not for exit. As a result, painters and plasterers on these floors cannot get out. Sidorov promised to fix everything. Meanwhile, feeding the painters through windows. 20.02. At last, Alex has finished his resizable windows. Tested them. Discovered that when the frame is resized, the glass in it breaks. Besides, there are some collateral effects. For example, w.c. bowl and bathtub from one flat can move into the living room of another. Also sometimes doors disappear and balconies crumble. No reason to complain to the concrete factory, they'll rightfully say that we shouldn’t use undocumented features. 21.02. Client visited. Asked, if we can make some small changes in the project. Particularly, instead of 12-stories house, to build a complex of wooden cottages connected by an underground tunnel. He read that it is fashionable in the West now. Neutralised Alex before he opened his mouth. Politely but firmly explained to the client that he is not right. 22.02. Balconies continue to crumble, although we haven’t touched the resizable windows anymore. Apparently, it is some unrelated bug. It is too late to try localise it, so we simply ripped off the remaining balconies just in case. Will try to explain to the client that it was done for optimisation. 23.02. Celebrated 23 February [Tr: Army Day in Russia, in a way it is the counterpart of Women Day, which is two weeks afterwards]. There are no servicemen in the company, so nobody spoiled the celebration. There are no women, either, so no gifts. Alas… 25.02. Alex tried to fix his windows. As a result, half of them shrank to zero size and cannot be restored. Told him to stop messing with the construction, or else. 27.02. Remembered today that we still forgot to make the entrance door. Were thinking whether the building will fall if we cut it out now. Sidorov said that we better not take this risk. B.B. called him a lamer and agreed. Must remember to describe entrance through a window in the manual as a design feature. 1.03. F-first of M-march? How comes? Yesterday it was still… Damn… Who knew that this lame February has only 28 days! So, object delivery is not in a week, but day after tomorrow?!! 2.03. All hands on deck! Working 24 hours a day without waking up. 3.03. Persuaded the client that we need one more day for final testing. Well… we did some funny things yesterday… Okay, it is not as terrible as it seems. So, what the heck if some doors are through a floor or a ceiling or lead from the 9th floor straight outside, if some flats are impossible to get into, w.c. at some places is combined with the kitchen, half the building is without water, the other half without electricity, sewerage ends on the 5th floor and stairway between 7th and 8th is a rope ladder? Key thing is to lead the client through the right path. Also must remember to hang some pictures with suitable landscape where the disappeared windows should be… 4.03. YES! YES! WE DID IT!!! Celebrating project delivery. I am trying to drink little. Must get out of this company in time, before the darned thing crashes to hell… +++

> So far, the current count is 1. Hooray for > me! Count is hereby 2. Double hurray! Or is it 3, counting ciks? 2nd generation emigrants do not apply. Only those who were in the Youth Communist League. As it seems, I am the one with most direct and recent experience of living in Russia proper. So, few comments. > I'd think that those lucky few over there > with access to PC's Those lucky 10 million people or so. Sold couple thousand with these wee hands o'mine. > and the internet 1 million subscribers figure was discussed a couple of years ago. Must be some 5 million by now (wild guess). Of course, it is nowhere near IP penetration in the US market, but if my mom (50 y.o. and retired from government job recently) got it this year, you get the picture. > Would have by now have heard of our game > and it's community. I think, several thousand illegal copies were sold. Maybe even several tens of thousands. NB: yours truly bought two licensed copies, but I work in Cyprus -> have no problem to afford it. > And with the advent of CM2:BTB, there will > be even more for them to enjoy. That's for sure. Soviet schoolbooks all but completely discounted the other allies. As a result, there is not much interest in Normandy. > My wife's young nephew in Ukraine works > full-time and earns about $7 for the > month. My mother in law is a retired > physician and her pension is about $15 a > month Ukraine is screwed up real badly. In Russia proper, it is now normal to earn usd 50-100. With local price structure, one can live off this sort of money. It's no thrills living, of course. OTOH, there are lots of cars on streets, and they cost anywhere from 2000 usd (2nd hand Lada VAZ 2105 in a driveable condition) upwards. Ie, it is not quite that simple. In Moscow life is much better than the rest of the country. > but this is exactly what 80 years of > Communisism will do for an economy. Sorry, pal, but do you at all realize what was the state of russian economy in 1921? In 1947? In 1980? I dont think so! 1920-1980 communists have made their own share of strategic mistakes, but the present state of the russian economy is not exactly their fault. On the contrary, the fact that the economy is still running is largely due to their effort and sacrifice (in the form of capital assets, nearly every factory, power plant, pipeline, road etc that is still working was built before 1990). > Which is funny because Star Trek is > basically a communist society But Soviet Union wasn't. > Yes, the rubel is worth very little. That > is why it is almost unused in Russia. If > you go into a store, chances are good that > you will be able to buy things with > dollars. 4 years ago chances already were about 99% that you'd be sent to the nearest currency exchange point (which wouldnt be too far away, anyhow). Paying with dollars is illegal and this law is quite thoroughly enforced. The only reasonable savings instrument for most russians is hard currency, though. > capitalism is dead, having served its > purpose. That leaves personal fufillment > as the only currency. Problem is, the society educates young people in such a way that most of them see no need for personal fulfillment at all, or think that being a milionaire is the ultimate goal. As Grandpa Marx taught, society formations tend to reproduce themselves and never go away without struggle.

Btw, standard loadout of modern russian tanks packs quite a few HE rounds, with much bigger 'blast value' than M1's HEAT.

Front aviation was not such a good tank killer, by the way. Share of ships sunk by planes is definitely much higher than that of tanks. Aviation was very effective against soft targets, though - and i just so happened that without support by those soft targets tanks were almost as good as dead.

> I am making a point that to pull back and > un-ass the HEs and bomb up with a better > mix of APs to HEs would have been much > better than your SOP. You are wrong, because most german vehicles could be KO'd or at least seriously damaged by a 122 mm HE. While firing the HE and loading the AP, they could back out or stop and fire away or keep rolling, depending on tactical situation. > Got a source BTW? Yes. Article on IS-2 in http://armor.kiev.ua/. In Russian.

>>> the russian IS2 doctrine >>> (whatever it was) didnt last long in >>> combat. >> Point 1. It did. > It did? It did what? Russian IS2 doctrine lasted long in combat. Ie, in essence the theory survived implementation.

I am not skippy, I am Skipper. Okay? > If the russians had been a little less > heavy handed, then thier losses wouldnt > have been as tragic. With perfect strategic intelligence, hindsight and all those people lost in 1941 - definitely! Without - hmm, dont know... OTOH, if french and brits were a bit more heavy-handed, who knows, maybe they would have a chance in 1940? > But they were allowing unwanted types to > get the chance to offer themselves up > werent they? They weren't. > The communists were no blessing on Mother > russia either so spare me and the others > your glorious praise of the soviets. What do you know about communists except that 'they were very evil and killed 100 million people'? I think, not much. Or what do you know about a situation in Russia between January and November of 1917? Or from 1875 to 1917? I think, nothing at all. Fair enough, we can have a meaningful discussion! NB: since when saying "he is not dumber than the other guy" counts as a glorious praise? > When the commisars were pulled back They never were. They were withdrawn from tactical decision making in 1942, but they remained in the OOB and were tremendously important to the unit cohesion. > The stupid germans were more > responsible for the losses than the > soviets leadership. Drop the word 'stupid' from this phrase, and I'll agree with this one!

> I suggest you guys read the book by Viktor > Suvorov - "Ledokol" (Ice Breaker?). He > studies the subject DEEEEP. Thanks, but no thanks. Suvorov is good reading, but he is dead wrong on key things. Mainly: Stalin did not plan to incite the war since early 30-s, USSR cannot be blamed for Hitler's rise to power, and Barbarossa was not a response to soviet mobilisation (it was the other way around). > The first contradicted contemporary > propaganda from the Russians about > Stalin's pretended wisdom. That's just another extreme point of view. Stalin was extremely intelligent, but this doesn't mean he was 100% rational, let alone incapable of misjudgements. In that case, as it seems to me, he firmly believed that countermeasures against german deployment left them no chance of success, and that therefore germans will not make the move. With hindsight, this belief seems irrational. However, it is not that simple - there were many warnings of imminent German strike in May and early June - and Germans didn't move. On one hand, Stalin misjudged germans, on the other hand, Hitler misjudged russians. The end result is well known. > The planned displacement of the Russian > industry to the east had been on the > drawing board. I always thought it was a total improvisation. Do you have any sources that support your opinion? > And still it was a near thing... By the way, I for one am not sure that germans ever came close to winning that campaign - definitely not in November 1941, and probably not in August 1942.

> How many russians died taking Berlin? Yeah, how many?