Apache

Fionn. Changed my PC too and inadvertently forgot to copy E-mail contacts before I passed other PC on to daughter. Can you mail me your address?

Must give this a try, sounds intruiging. BTW Fionn, thought you'd vanished off the face of the Earth. Did you get my last mail, not sure if I have your e-mail address right?

Major Action I think this needs to vary dependant on the task. Having thrown in a few of my own at times I found one of the most important things was the the fact that your company is ordered either to be part of the Assault Element (AE), either spearheading for it or by being part of the main atacking force, or covering the Support by Fire mission (SBF) to the main force. Maybe they will, if lucky, even be batallion reserve, being used to plug gaps if any appear or just getting sent into towns etc. to mop up once the objectives have mainly been achieved. This prevents players always keeping their core nice and safe. I use this 'order' generator for both the infantry and the AFVs that make up my core (each being rolled separately, e.g. one roll for the inf coy and one for my Stug platoon). I have kept mine quite simple using the type of action as a guide. I roll up for whether the MA is an assault, attack or probe. The possibility of such an event is rolled for all the battles between 5-12 but it can only happen once, you then get a minimum of 5 battles clear. I have not got round to thinking about MEs and certainly not yet the defence side of things, next rules maybe for the edefence? Anyway, some general points of mine re assault, attack and probe: Assault - I generally use btn strength infantry, perhaps some engineers too and maybe one company of infantry extra (allows for core to be reserve if needed). They are supported normally by 1-3 platoons of tanks etc. and some good arty. (AFAIK using a company of tanks per company of infantry is representative of panzer division deployment levels, not pure inf.). The biggest I had (IIRC) was 2 batallions of infantry and a company of tanks + a BIG arty support and other 'bits and pieces'. Attack - I tend to reduce the tanks by 1-2 platoons, and dilute the arty a little. May be some more infantry and the odd assault gun etc. For both attack and assault I sometimes vary the use or armored infantry batallions with the various H/Ts etc. Probe: Again possibly Bn level BUT light recon vehicles tend to replace the tanks (except my core and that is Stugs anyway). Usually I opt for a mix of light and heavy A/Cs and throw in a few HMGs to represent the heavily armed and aggressive German recon outfits. I tend to set them higher on the expereince scale too, Vet normally. In all above cases I apply the modifiers to the extra units only (not core) and do not roll for Aux forces. I will often use towns and cities for these actions (less so with probes) and have been trying to work out a way to have pre-determined and pre-purchased soviet set-ups for this, so you get a human designed Soveit defence. I'm not sure if you can start as a PBEM, mail it to someone to set up the soviet side and then save the scenario and play as single player? I sometimes find the AI does not position fortifications and defence assets to well. [ December 22, 2002, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Tabletop wargaming only. Packed that up when I realised I'd need a warehouse to play WWII, not to mention thousands of pounds worth of units, scenery and paint Stick to PC versions now, this and Napoleonics. More ambience too. No matter how good the units, scenery looks in table top you still had to get out dice and a tape measure before long

Andreas, watching with interest. What's a GM? Just an aside, I do find the text being in yellow on a white background hard to see at times (front page). Once highlighted after visiting the link it turns even brighter yellow and goes almost invisible. [ December 21, 2002, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Having played a few times using the options I refer to above I shall definitely be sticking with them (at least for time being). I don't use the modifiers as we originally re-modelled them, just use them to bulk up the Aux Forces on assault, attack and probe and use the scrounged points to buy what I consider to be 'historical' for a battle group with the task in hand, sort of a wild card purchase. Dispenses with scrounged unit experience etc. which I also like.

Looking forward to them being up in CMMOS form.

Interesting thoughts re experience. There will however, I expect, be some who will wish to play 'historical'. It has been mentioned about doing grog/gamer versions, perhaps this is where it becomes relevant? However, as players get better and better at this they will, hopefully, be able to kick the AI easier. Reflecting the historical accuracy to some degree may actually prolong interest. Have to be careful here I think. Most PC games work on the basis of the levels getting harder etc for that reason. I've also played about here with some thoughts that have been niggling me with regard to Aux/Scrounged forces and the comment Biltong made regarding having possibly altered the balance too much in our favour with the force size modifiers. I'm getting this down quick so others can take a view on it and as such it is not meant to be a solution but food for thought. Some principles: A) Modifiers were introduced to even up battles on attack, assault and probe It has evened things up but may have over done it? C) It has the effect of constantly rounding battle sizes down to company level actions D) Some have concerns over the use of scrounged units and/or the degree of randomness which may prevent the more 'accurate' use of the battle group concept. This is what I have tried a couple of times: 1) Roll up the Core and Aux as normal. This is the Force size you set in QB for both Aux and real game. 2) Multiply the Aux Forces (only) by the correct modifiers when attacking etc. (this brings your force size up a little but, leaving out the core, not by as much). For ease of description I am leaving out casualty issues. 3) Take any scrounged unit points (from you LAST battle), multiply them by the modifier if attacking etc. and add them to whatever Aux category you like (this sometimes alters the balance in your favour a lot, sometimes hardly at all, barely making up for the points you lose by not modifying for your core force point value). Ther concept of scrounged units is are gone in its current form. Then either: 4a) Use the QB Aux Force rule to generate your Aux list; or (my preference) 4b) Select the Force and Division type as per the normal Aux generator (or to which ever division type you like if you have opted for one type throughout your campaign, e.g. SS Mech), then select 'allow human purchase'. You then browse through the lists selecting your units up to the modified values within of the Aux units. Indeed, if opting to use one division type throughout you can omit the Aux force 'shopping list' bit and just go straight to your game. I still have to try this a lot more and think a lot through but prefer this because: i) It does not result in things being evened up quite as much ii) It brings the battles up in size quite a lot at times iii) I don't like the scrounged unit concept and would rather use the points more effectively iv) I prefer to form more useful battle groups for the task in hand. See what you think. I am looking at whether favour etc. should/could be used to modify points as well. [ December 17, 2002, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Bump - Sorry.

Doh! Ordered on the 15th, may have missed the boat this time

Hawker T - Thanks for your comments. I suspect once everyone is satisfied the rules are as near perfect as they can be got there may well be the opportunity to market them more. I have a couple of ideas on that which I will run past the team as the time gets nearer. Team - I also wonder a little about the scrounged units now. Would the permanent or semi-permanent attachment of a reasonably ' relaistic ' support unit or two, up to a certain point value (perhaps related to favour AND depending on the type of action you faced) not be a better way to handle core supplements? E.g. few extra HMGs on defence, platoon of A/Cs (reccce platoon) on a probe/assault. I think the point regarding replacement of scrounged units is well made. A regular unit attached to you in an official capacity is perhaps more likely to get replacements than a press-ganged sharpshooter or rag-tag platoon. I must admit I do not use the scrounged element of the rules myself. I rarely find the point values make it worth it, preferring the more formal arrangement I describe above which, in my view, more 'accurately' reflects the battle group concept and composition. Also, can't recall from the rules but, do we need to look at any guidance re numbers TRPs, minefields, bunkers etc. on defence? I think the gun towing element is a good point too. I suspect we can generally say, seeing as guns will only form part of your core as a 'scrounged unit' (if you use them), that they will have been positioned for you on the defence. I do tend to buy transport out of any support costs I get if on the attack though (an AT gun stuck way back in the woods generally being about as much use as a chocolate fireguard)! [ December 16, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Thanks Gordon, I thought that would be the case. Couldn't work out what that revert switch did.

IIRC CMBB shipped with summer textures will whill still be used by default in winter until you add the correctly numbered (1 in front as per CMBO?) winter mods. With CMMOS I notice that there is an option to use winterized or return to summer. I've not yet downloaded the winter mods, still working on the summer stuff. But, if you apply winter textures (which will load the winter mods the first time) and you then played two other games, one summer and one winter, will the game automatically load and play with the summer then winter vehicles respectively? I was just wondering if perhaps you fail to hit the 'revert to summer vehicles' for instance, whether you would get winter vehicles in summer etc? [ December 15, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

I am a great fan of your (and Panzermartin) mods and, not being a modder myself, I wonder if it is possible to bundle all your vehicles into one or more complete packs as time goes on, similar to they way Gordon did/does his?

I know this is/was on the list (too busy doing lunch to read now) but I think the random rolled major action event every now and then (where your core spearheads/supports)involving perhaps anything from just 2-3 more companies of infantry to a full scale combined arms assault with tanks/TDs (the works) will add to the excitement and break up too much company versus company level actions.

I certainly think that 2 and 3 will be enhanced by providing higher quality Axis troops at the start, gradually diluting the force as the campaign goes on, serving to both make the game harder and add some degree of historical accuracy. I do wonder though whether the whole experience thing can/should be made a whole lot easier. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem doing what we do but can it be done easier, given what the final result would be (e.g. a green, regular, vet etc core and/or Aux). If CMBB allowed varied platoon experience within companies I could definitely see the point but I wonder whether some knind of combination of timing, company casualties linked to the CMBB results screen may make it a lot easier and quicker. FWIW I know of quite a few people who find the rules appealing but find the post battle scoring too onerous to tempt them to try the rules.

I bet he's going to release it for a Xmas present

Looking at some of the e-mail replies we've had, and given that some amended rules could be created to progress on from Dec 41, would it not be better to start the whole experience of force and replacements off closer to the way it was in reality. E.g. with higher quality troops and replacements almost up to the end of the first set of campaign rules? I think the above is better but still wonder if we're over diluting the Axis forces too soon. 40-60% vet at first perhaps? Perhps the core needs to start at regular at least too, maybe even Vet? One problem could be the easier games people face going up against depleted Soviet forces and partisans with Vet/Crack troops but is that not what happened? Are we not getting the whole thing back to front? Better perhaps to start with higher quality and gradually wind down with your unit getting weaker and weaker troops replacing the losses (a real incentive to keep your guys alive). Also, if you keep your CO he will doubtles get better and better, getting more and more favour while having the frustration of getting low quality replacements esp by 42/3. That way, newcomers will be eased into the rules and perhaps the game easier, getting the hang of it without having to contend with a green Axis force and poor quality replacements right at the start. They would have to later on of course, esp BCR2. My general view is starting to come round to the thought that initial battles perhaps ought to some extent be a bit like a hot knife going through butter. Just a thought. [ December 14, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

I got the CMMOS OK but, using download accelerator plus (I have no choice being on a 56K modem) I am getting some problems downloading some mods. I keep getting password requests and then anonymous downloads not allowed? Can't find any mirrors.

My mistake folks, trouble of trying to do things when you're feeling a bit rough/tired. Auto parameter sheet 1.4 does seem to generate Allid Attacks etc OK. I'd forgotten to change the date in the 2nd lot of date boxes

Well I must admit, I'm looking forward to getting it.

Posting this just in case it is an issue. There was an earlier post about whether anyone had tried any battles where the Axis forces were on the defence, to test the balance etc. I thought I might give it a try this weekend, if I get time. I decided to have a look at the auto-parameter sheet to see what it rolled up for me and in tried 50 F9 presses with the date set to Nov 41. No Allied attack, assault or probe was generated. I then tried another 50 in December. Again, not one. Best that could be got is a ME. Is that right?

Fingers crossed then. Ordered it on the 12th.

Lou - Do you mean you got from US or did you find it actually on sale in the UK? I've ordered direct from BFC.

My thoughts (as expressed in the main Rule thread mirror some of the views expressed here). IMHO it would be highly unlikely that the troops first sent in by Germany in 1941 could ever be classed as green (certainly not to the extent that troops break etc. so easily at that level within CMBB). It may even be that many were more towards the upper end of any 'Regular' setting. I think this would be particularly so with SS outfits (if someone, as I do, opts to stick with the same division type throughout each campaign). As time went on I suspect the chance of units being diluted through large numbers of less well trained troops, even conscripts towards the end, was much greater. My first point I suppose is that for German troops at least I would be tempted to start any off half way up the range of points for Regular. e.g. if troops were set at regular for any experience points between 10-30, I'd start them off at 15. I am not sure how this would affect the other Axis forces mind. Maybe the troops of some other nations should be started off as green but I also think the Rules could only take account of that if you did stick to the one nation/one division type, rather than hop around the different company types as the rules allow (and were even designed to do). It might just be playable if you stuck to the different German companies. I would have thought those troops starting in 1941 (German) could be classed as Regular for about 10-20 battles, then Vet, up to about 20-35 battles and maybe crack after 35 (if the average length of a Campaign game was 50 battles or so). I am sure there will be others who are far better read on the topic than I who can give some better guidance mind. From the Soviet perspective I would also think that a high degree of constraint should be placed on any settings for Soviet forces that put them beyond Regular for some time. Given that this set of rules is devised for the first 6 motnhs of Barbarossa I wonder whether they would ever be likely to get above Regular (even Green) at best? Guards Mech/Guards may be expected to I suppose but from my limited knowledge of the Eastern Front I think the Soviets were taking quite a thrashing for a couple of years before they could start throwing the CMBB equivalent of Vet/Crack into the battles. Again, others will have more knowledge than I. [ December 08, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]