Apache

Just to confirm: 1) I presume you need to uninstall 4.02 first or do you just install 4.03 over it? 2) There are a couple of rulesets now that have similar names s/stall_d/gelb_ruleset and then the same file that ends in _ruleset1. Is the rule ending in 1 meant to replace the previous one (and you therfore need to delete its zip file) or is the rule an addition which is required as well as?

Sounds good. I'll mail you my experience sheet which I use for battalion. As you have doubtless gone through loads of options in getting the 'regular' rules experience to their current state I'd welcome any thoughts you have that may save me a load of time. That said, keeping it simple is a MUST for me using so many units. It lacks the sophistication but, hopefully does the job to a point.

Because I use an amended version of the rules which gives me complete ownership of an entire battalion plus its support I have had to REALLY simplify the Experience (Battle Group) sheet. I have re-designed my own version which is nowehere near as sophisticated as the current one but is quicker (it needs to be if you have to do 3-4 companies of infantry and 15 tanks!). Trouble is I haven't got round to fULLY playtesting it yet to see if everything comes out about right. It should do though. If anyone wants it to try, let me know. I'm going to try and have a look at the Favour sheet too and am contemplating merely using some kind of system based on the CMBB end battle result screen (which IIRC has been suggested befoie).

Andreas - You're right. The sites above are listed under the 'live'. Glad to hear M&M might be back up, I enjoyed CM Outpost too, excellent to have the before and after mod shots together.

I have the armour and infantry tactics books for both Soviet and german forces and find them good value for money. Particularly useful if you wish to play each side in accordance with their respective doctrines.

Spoilers: ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I had a similar experience. I've tried using all the tanks off the ridge to KO the ATs opposite and then roll the IIs and 50% of the IIIs direct ahead while some infantry take out the ATs in the small hamlet in the East. Trouble with that plan - time. Too much gets snagged up taking the hill directly in front and unless the Stukas KO the guns in the woods by the hamlet (rare) that gets problematic too. On one attempt I even tried emptying the whole load of 81mm mortar on the woods to KO the guns - result - zip. ATs still working fine. They must be darn good shots too!! They took out 4 HTs travelling at in Fast mode, hitting them on the run (believeable?). I'm now trying to push everything to the East. First time I emptied the 81mm on the woods to the West of the hill (which seemed to KO the guns) and used the IVs and a couple of IIIs on the ridge to cover, just in case (still wasted all the 81mm mind). I then pushed the remainder up to the hamlet, quickly KOing the AT there. Not quick enough mind, already at turn 25! :mad: Now plan to use tanks to cover the ridge (2 IVs and 2 III), push the rest to the hamlet and overrun it, then push to the scattered trees to the front/East of the bridge, attempt to get through without bogging, take out the T34s from the flank and then use the arty (all of it if needed, on the AT to the west of the bridge. Then, if any time left, envelope back and take the hill, hopefully knocking out the infantry. We'll see!!!

I'd be sorry to see CMHQ die. It did start it all off and it is handy having all the CMMOS articles in one place. Even if all CMHQ did was support them, plus perhaps the occassional news article/update it would be worth keeping. A lot of the archive stuff is still relevant to CMBB too (IMO). There having been no posts to the contrary I can only assume the other sites I originally queried have passed away

Jason, many thanks for your response to my post. I have probably described the list I am trying to create a little incorrectly. I suppose it should be better described as: 'A Battle Group (shopping) list for both Heer Infantry and SS where the largest infantry element that the player will deploy is one battalion'. The lists therefore do not have to reflect just the units organic to the battalions themselves, rather they provide a shopping list (which will be supplemented by explanatory notes) which give players some idea of what they can/should buy if they want to keep within the bounds of realism. To some extent I suppose the fluid nature of a battle group formation might mean that anything is possible but I am trying to keep to a kind of 'vanilla' option, if there is such a thing. Some players are clearly interesetd in trying to be historic but perhaps lack the knowledge, sources or inclination to prepare such a list. The list is for my purposes and anyone else who wants it. If players want to go and take two platoons of JadgTigers, that is a matter for them. I have mailed you the lists themselves (not sure if you use Excel) which may give you a better idea of what I'm trying to do. The numbers next to the units represent the absolute maximum a player could pick if the WHOLE battalion is deployed, the notes will qualify to help prevent excesses (e.g. If only one company of infantry is deployed, take only one platoon of Stugs max). Hopefully you get the idea. I have incorporated most of the above information from your post into the notes on Heer. [ January 21, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Thanks for responses. New sites added, others archived.

Jason, many thanks for response. Just about to go out so cannot go through it fully now. The main reasons for mixing the tanks etc with the SS/Pz is so that I don't have to attach a full bn of tanks (1 Light/2 Med coy?) but, the player still does not get the benefit of full companies of the larger gunned tanks. On that basis I thought mixing the III variants would be the best way to 'replicate' the 1 to 2 company light/medium mix. Like I say, rushing now, or at least my wife is rushing me. Will go through it much more tomorrow. Many thanks for your input which I always regard VERY highly.

I've played this a couple of times and I must admit I think it is an excellent scenario. Only problem is I haven't fared too well the first couple of time I tried it (as Axis) I've had a few attempts and am improving, in real life with only one shot at it, I'd have been stuffed. Anyone played it and achieved a good/outstanding result (and I don't mean playing as Axis and getting wiped out)

I am trying to put a couple of tables together which list the type and rough number of extra 'units' a battalion would be able to call upon without reference too much higher up the command chain. I accept that battalions varied enormously and that as the war progressed different units became available. The idea is to use the list for a set of campaign rules, which is an adaptation of Biltong's, to guide players as to what they may realistically have had access too. I have to therefore try and do a generic guide. The rules start in June '41 and will progress through the whole campaign. In the majority of cases the whole battalion will NOT be deployed, rather players will select portions of it dependant on the various missions (e.g. probe, attack and defence). It is intended to help those who wish to, avoid wild innacuracies in unit selection (e.g. two companies of SS being supported by (amongst other things) 6 Flakpanzers (when, AFAIK, they were only issues in parcels of around 8 to a whole division), or 4 150mm FOs, 10 Nashorns or 12 Flammpanzers etc. etc. I am working on the basis that an SS and a Panzer Grenadier (Panzer) Battalion would probably operate on a very similar basis and that a regular Heer infantry bn would likely have much lower levels of kit, being supported by Stugs rather than tanks and having higher numbers of towed guns. I am working on the basis that the SS bn is armoured. Some of my sources (and some are dated), vary ENORMOUSLY. Michael Dorosh has offered to look over some spreadsheets I have done (pse let me know if you don't receive the mail) and JasonC has helped out way back to a degree in previous correspondence re CMBO (are you still CMing Jason?). The main areas I wish to tidy up are: 1) AT assets (aside from those that CMBB allocates when you pick a bn). Numbers, proportion and caliber (for specific AT rather than AA used as). Also, as war progresses, likely numbers of Pz IV/70, Hetzers and Marders etc. Am working on the basis that most J/Panthers etc in late war were Western front and that J/Tigers were rare and were deployed mainly closer to Berlin in last ditch defence (Remagen etc.?). Sources of course may be wrong. I stress though that the lists are a guide and do not need to be 100% spot on (but the closer I can get the better mind). 2) Arty - again, excluding any allocated with a CMBB bn purchase (2x75mm IIRC). I am working on the basis that generally 105/150mm would be way back behind the lines and therefore will use FOs in the main. My sources vary on how many FOs (max) a bn would be able to call on though. At moment I am using 2 x 105 and 1 x 150 for Heer and one of each for SS (on the basis that SS would get HE support from tanks etc as well). In some cases (overruns etc) I accept that the 105/150 guns may be on map too and again I need to define numbers (12 and 4 respectively - Heer and SS?). AFAIK the SS use of IGs would be less (non existant?) but as for Heer, one source says 12 per coy and one approx 4 (on the basis of the bn drawing one third of the division's allocation). In total, I am looking to cover 120mm Mortar (at moment I am asigning 1 FO per Bn, SS or Heer, in addition to their 81s), 105/150 (numbers/ratio) and others (75s, sIGs and later, any SP). 3) AA assets, again number, propertion of caliber. Particularly interested in number of 88s (which will doubtles be deployed for AT use) for SS and whether Heer would have them at all. Believe SS would be likely to have vehicle mounted to Sd or Flakvierling (1-2 max?). 4) Sh/shooters, T/Hunter teams and ATRs (the individual CMBB units rather than any that come with other infantry purchases). I am looking at creating these as an attached pool, but roughly how many to a bn. At moment I have just plucked the figure of 6 out of the air for both SS and heer. 5) Trucks, Sd Kfz 7 and 250/251 1/2/10s etc. 6) A/cars, on the basis of a recon platoon (vehicles + troops) being attached. Am assuming roughly 6-8 vehicles, mainly MG or 20 mm armed with perhaps 1-2 max 75mm and am giving them an Aufklarung Platoon. I am not sure whether the Heer would have had access to such a recon unit (esp the A/Cs) or whether they would have achieved it by other means? 7) Finally tanks/stugs. Number of comapnies and proportions of IIs, IIIs and IVs or III B, E F, F/8 and Stuh etc (which will of course vary as the war progresses). At present the SS have two companies of tanks rather than a whole bn (1 light and two medium, or very early 2 light and one medium?). The first coy is IIIs (mixed) and the second is III (larger gunned) and IVs. I am also allowing for the (VERY) occasional attachment of a platoon (max) of Tigers (mainly for armour confontations) and have also attached a platoon of light tanks IIs. I have perhaps mixed the coys up a bit much but I thought a complete bn of tanks was a little OTT and I wanted to ensure that there was a good mix, not just the upgunned varieties. As for the Sugs, I'm currently using a company (1 pl of B, 1 of Fs and 1 of Stuh). Any help/views much appreciated. Edited 1,000,000 times for errors :mad: [ January 19, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

I have a load of links in my favourites but having checked quite a few out they do not seem to have been updated in ages, having been away quite a lot I've probably missed any posted updates about them. CM Outpost and Mods and Modders are two that spring to mind, there's been no update at CMHQ for over a month either. It seems the only live sites are: Scenario Depot Boots n Tracks CM Mod Catalogue Der kessel Toms G/Deutschland and the various campaign related (CMMC2) Any other gems I'm missing?

IIRC FOs than can do smoke can do up to the total of their ammo allowance. Each time you fire one smoke round it comes of your total allowance so you have less left for HE.

Armament is the main gun. You then just use the first figure exp gain if they get up to the first kill level and the second number if the 2nd or above etc. Biltong: Try this for some weather: http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/

SuperS - No problem. Sent v1.2 to you today (copied to Biltong too). Like I say, I still have to tidy up a LOT. I want to wait until we get the very last version of the BCR 41 before I tidy that according to my use, I use everything except the portion that relates to Battle group and Task Force. I thing the rules are good as they are, I just like the batallion size forces I now own and like the historical aspect of picking what a real commander would have picked for the type of mission in hand. That is why I chose SS and Heer, the former being much better off for equipment, especially the tanks and S/P TDs and Arty and the latter relying more on different versions of Stug/Stuh for assault/TD purposes and towed guns. V1.2 has been tidied quite a lot over v1.1, Batallion mixes are still not finisehd though (amongst other things). BTW - I'm not in any way suggesting that what I'm doing should be considered as amendments to current rules. I merely post this and copy you the rules to keep you, and others interested in developments using a slightly more historical perspective, up to speed with what I'm working on. [ January 14, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

SuperSulo I like the panzers too, just not when I have rolled an Infantry or Mech only battle. I will send you the latest version of BCR + add-ons that I use. Just for my own purposes I have totally overhauled the Axis Force rule(s). When I get time I'll tidy it all up into a neat package but I'm far too busy on the research right now and, as it's just for me (unless anyone else wants it), there's no rush. I use the rules almost 'as is' until I get to Axis Force, I even use them up to the point where you start to pick the Task Force. I have however dispensed entirely with the concept of a core infantry company (as we know it) and their 'variety' AFVs. Instead I use Batallion strength for my campaign and I 'OWN', and am resposible for, all of it! Basically I've moved up to brigade level command (I own the Tank Bn too) You will see I actually plan to use two Batallions (not together mind, I choose which one I want to battle with each time I play). One is SS and the other is Heer. They sort of run in parallel throughout. Being at Battallion strength they also get nearly all of the goodies that go with them, tanks, recon companies, AA, AT, Arty, even trucks. There may be the odd unit I will use that is not listed but I will class that as 'seconded', there aren't many I don't account for mind. I will perhaps account for a HEAVY penalty to favour if I loose seconded units, with what I have available it will be rare I need them! The SS Bn is armoured (and, being SS, the panzers available match them on a platoon basis, i.e. one platoon of tanks per platoon of infantry). The Heer outfit gets assault guns, not tanks (in the main, only Pz divisions fought regularly with tanks AFAIK), and towed arty/AT etc instead of SP. Adds to the variety. I'm fairly busy now just ensuring I get the balance of kit right in each. I am also busy on the list I mentioned before re AFV dispersal (so I am not tempted to list the two medium tank companies in 1941 as having all IVs for instance). I stress that the kit listed is the kit that is AVAILABLE for me to draw on dependant on what the rules and my Force limiters allow. Having dispensed with the core inf coy I added 400-500 to each figure in the battle size table i originally sent. This ir perhaps wrong and I need to re-do, it will end up in 1,000 point minimums in the main. I will probably set a core battle value (500 points) and roll for points to add, as I originally did, but separating more of the values by 200 or so. If I am playing with my SS and get a daylight assault with I might take 50% of the panzers, 2 infantry companies, 2 assault guns, some recon, a pioneer platoon and arty. On the defence I might use mainly infantry, AT, AA etc. This way though you REALLY care about ALL of your kit, not just a core coy. I am looking at using easy replacement rolls for tanks etc too. E.g. if a tank get KO you roll to see whether it takes 2, 5, 7, 10, or 15 battles before you get a new one. More you get killed, less you have, maybe for some time I am also looking at simplifying (out of need) the experience calculations we use. It will be heavily based on what we use now but, if I have a Bn of infantry and company of tanks to roll for, plus the other goodies, it will take an age. Having played the rules a lot gives us a good feel for whether the platoon should go up or down a point or more. It will be very much guess-timate I suspect. I can keep you posted if u like (and anyone else that's interested). [ January 13, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Just to test something, as an alternative to the task force points we roll up I've drawn up a rough grid indicating a certain number of points which you roll up which are then added to your core infantry company, this dispenses with AFVs being part of the (old) core and the current task force rules. Personally, I think I would prefer to have my Force Type actually set in the QB which will then only allow me to spend points on certain categories (e.g. no armour for inf/mech). If anything, the use of the inf coy and core AFVs may be too repetitive/restrictive for my tastes. If I draw an infantry only force mix, that's what I would like to fight. It certainly makes the prospect of facing Guards Armored more daunting! It would work as follows: You use the rules up to and including 27. Then, based on the Axis Force tiype you rolled up, roll again for the number of points to add to the cost of the inf coy core. E.g.: Inf Mech C/Arms Armour 1 500 500 600 700 2 600 700 700 800 3 700 700 800 900 etc. etc. 9 1250 1500 1500 1500 10 1500 1500 1500 2000 I'm not finished working the numbers through yet, only thought this up today. I may incorporate the MA rule into this, e.g. anything over 2000 (whatever) total qualifies as an MA and is then subject to my 'and you have got to do x, y or z' rules. The points are added to the cost of the core inf coy (406 in my case) and the whole lot is modified if Axis Ass, Att or Pr etc. It is then just a case of picking what you like from the reasonably historically accurate QB shopping list (benefiting from the hard work BTS did). I may use the list of proportions I sent out and perhaps apply modifier rolls to the proportionof points which, for instance, limit the spend on armour to 25% or less once we get to 43/44 etc. (Istill need to check if BTS have already done it though, I don't want to double penalise myself). I see no point in modifying for battle type, BTS have already done it. Whether a random roll for 'You can only spend 25%, 50% or 75%' of what CMBB will allow you to spend on certain catgeories will make it more interesting I'm not sure. E.g. On an Axis Assault with a Combined Arms Force the game will allow you to spend 24% of the total points you have on armour. Using the above example you would be restricted to 6%, 12% or 18%. Not sure about that bit though. I then plan to keep track of the various platoons of AFVs I use in much the same way as we do now. If I use the IIIs, I wheel out their scores etc. etc. (the Recon outfit is pretty darn mean!!!, I wouldn't want to face it). The thing I like about this revised 'system' is that it allows me to use (and restricts me to) the Force type as rolled for, does not give me an unfair advantage against the Soviets (by still getting AFVs when I roll Infantry and Mech), still gives me a core (there will always be at least one rifle company, in the night scenario above it would have been a Bn!), allows flexibility to use a more realistic Battle Group and still (if the latterly described modifiers are applied) throws in a FUBAR factor. To me, it's also a LOT simpler. That IS NOT a criticism by the way. It just doesn't make my brain constantly think 'Somethin' ain't right 'ere'. Regards all Apache [ January 12, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Biltong/Team: I've done a spread sheet indicating what proportion of points an Axis Commander would be able to spend on the various categories IF we selecetd the Force Type as rolled up, rather than leaving it 'Unrestricted' (which of course allows us to buy what we roll up and our Battle Group AFVs). I have mailed the sheet to you all, disregard if not interesetd. My main concern is that even with the modifiers for the Task Force we still, for instance, get to heavily out gun the Soviets one the basis of the Battle group AFVs alone where we have rolled an Infantry only force for ourselves. In fact it is only in a Combined Arms or Armour force type that the game would give us any AFVs at all! Not sure how much of a problem it will be. I'll probably monitor the imbalance as my current campaign progresses. I still wonder whether or not to bin the AFVs from the battle group and just have a inf coy. Or whteher to bin the various Task force rolls. I could then roll up for a number of points to spend on extras, apply modifiers as necessary (to even up the battle) and then just buy what the game will allow using the spreadsheet as a guide to ensure I don't unfairly overspend in a certain situation. I could even use another roll to allow me to spend up to 50%, 75% and 100% on the extras that the game would allow. This would probably require just as many rolls at present but would have the advantage of making Axis Forces fight an infantry battle with infantry. I just had a hard time of a night battle in fog and rain against infantry. The points I rolled allowed quite a bit of extra kit (vehicles and armour) but, with visibility down to 45m it was next to useless. 75% of the AFVs bogged en route! Ordinarily, if not constrained by Task Force parameters I'd have taken primarily infantry and forgone the rest for a couple of good spotters and a fire-prep. I doubt many commanders would have amassed the kind of battle group I was forced to for this mission. Biltong - re the date. Wouldn't the wording I suggested above do it, perhaps blended with the parameters. I actually don't think it's too confusing now, it's perhaps just the use of 'additional' and similar terms that may confuse. Perhaps we need to make it clear whether players SELECT that week or day following the roll or ADD that number of weeks days. Perhaps bold and capitalise which? [ January 12, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

IMHO excesive bogging is only a problem if you use overly heavy tanks on a regular basis. The last thing I'd want is for CMBB to replicate those other awful WWII games which rely on hit-points and fast mouse action. As has already been said, for the sake of gameplay, and perhaps other reasons, we have been spared the frustrations that commanders had to face in reality, such as breakdowns and other regular mechanical failure. IMO the balance is right, let's not dilute it any more.

Aaron Cost of the Battle group varies as they progress in quality. You will need to go to a QB screen each time they go up a grade to see what the cost is and fill those in. If you roll up a certain type of battle and get zilch in certain categories it can be problemtatic. If you are assaulting for instance a heavily defended position against a Soviet armour or combined outfit and get very little mobile AT assets you could face a tough time. On assault, attack and probe sceanrios the Soviet forces will be balanced by the applied modifiers. If you're defending the Soviets will only get what they should get. I'd be quite happy to see the Soviets get extra points to spend if it meant the difference between arty and no arty etc. I can do A LOT of damage with relatively few points in certain categories The attached units are meant to represent the odd few troops that you persuade or coerce into joining your group, representing to some degree, troops that have become detached from parent units. Hence few points. I tend to run them up until I can afford an extra platoon (say Pioneers or something) rather than spend piecemeal on s/shooters etc. I use a platoon of different AFVs depending on the mission. It varies each time and I try to reflect the historical likelihood of getting them. e.g. not likely to get a platoon of Tigers each battle when they first hit the front (BTW I rarely if ever use Tigers).

Super S I thought the date thing was me. I do think the date needs to be sorted out with a lot more clarity. I think it will put people off before they start. Personally I'd go for: 9-10: Add 1 month (day and week stays the same) Then go to rule 2. 6-8: You will add Weeks. Roll again to get the number of weeks (if you roll 5+ roll again). Then add THAT number of weeks onto previous battle date which MAY move you into the next month. Then roll for THE day of THAT week (rather than number of days). 8+ roll again. Then go to rule 2. 1-5: ADD that number of days (which MAY move you into the next week). Then go to rule 2. I think the Force type maybe needs a little more thought if it's to be of any use. If we select Infantry only for Soviets they get infantry only. If we roll infantry only we do not and to some extent that throws out the balance more IMHO than a lack of modifiers. I'd be quite happy to take on a 1500 - 2000 Soviet infantry only force with my core inf coy and AFVs alone. In fact I recently rolled up a game when I did just that. I think the Force type should dictate what you get to roll up in your task force and we perhaps need modifiers acordingly or perhaps sub-rules. Just my 2 cents worth. At present I can see it serving little purpose. [ January 11, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Couple of thoughts - queries 1) With the date in v1.6 am I correct in assuming that if your previous battle was day 4, week 3, July and you roll a 10 the next is day 4, week 3 August? Personally I think the date section is getting darn cofusing. If I were to pick this up from scratch today I'm not sure I'd have a clue how Date worked. If you have rolled for weeks and then rolled again for 1 I guess you add on 1 week. When you then come to additional days do you add them on to previous days or does it merely denote the day of the week? I think the use of additional needs to be examined, it gives the impression that you add the days on, not always the case. Does it also need to be made clear that if you roll and it's days you merely add them on (moving to the next week if needed) and move on the next parameter, same if it's a month. 2) Is there any point in rolling up for Force type for Axis? If you set Infantry only in a QB you do not get Armour/Vehicles. We defeat the object in many cases because we are liable to get armour and vehicles support for every battle we do. Do we need modifiers that if you have rolled for an infantry only force you do not get armour/vehicles etc? 3) I'm sure this is on the forums but if anyone knows it may save me a lengthy search. When I set quality to unrestricted and I buy a regular infantry copmany I quite often get a green/conscript unit thrown in, happens with AFV platoon too. I presume, because we are not restricting quality the game is randomly picking lower units that we are buying. Is this fair to us. We are working quite hard to get our experience and, having earned it, should we not be setting quality in the QB to ensure we do not get troops of a quality way below what we have earned? 4) Any thoughts on previous suggestion re using the quality we roll for in replacements as the task force quality setting for the next battle too? Saves having to go through the motions of doing it again. [ January 11, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

New game in May then

Bloody hell. That quick!! I'd have thought a few months yet. Is there like to be a post giving a heads-up on what's covered by the patch (esp re game play)?