Apache

Is is available then?

Thanks for the info guys, very useful. I am trying to get a base line for both a 'vanilla' Heer Infantry Bn and an SS Armoured Pz Gr Bn. Going on the above, both would be more likely to have 105 than 75mm with both of these generally being off-map arty (the 75 being an arty weapon rather than IG). However for Heer esp, towed IG would be more common. A Heer Bn could expect up to 4 IGs to be available or platoon of sIGs (4?) later. SS same unless armoured when they would perhaps have up to 5 x 75mm in HTs instead + perhaps 2 towed IGs?

Thanks for reply Jason. I know it's hard to be definitive but I am currently working on the basis of 4 PAK 36 per Bn of infantry (IF they have them for that battle). Is that too few? Some sources I have indicate a Bn would have access to up to 12? Seems a bit high (that source is a wargame rule book mind and is perhaps not accurate). I will perhaps modify the 'rules' I am using to ensure that there is less likelihhod of Heer facing armour on the attack without armoured or at least some type of reasonable support, giving the opportunity to cater for the odd one-off where they encounter them by surprise. I'd planned to switch more to PAK 38 early 42 then PAK 40 late 43 to end. Again not all the time, just trying to get a feel for what's right. PAK 43 I assume are rare. [ February 03, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Hi Biltong, Think I was half asleep when I wrote the map question, can't understand it myself now It's just the use of the term Force Size when working out what map size to use (37?). Is it a) the size of YOUR force (e.g. the points you roll up) or the size of the QB Battle setting? My Battalion version is all but done now. It will go to version 2 soon (once I have read and re-read the rules and notes). It contains: 1) Amended rules for battalion level actions (up to). 2) Appendix to set the battle sizes for both Heer and and SS Mech Bn 3) Appendix detailing the %age of points CMBB will normally allow you to spend on different unit categories (dependant of the Force Mix) 4) Modifed Experience Gain chart to speed up process (necessary at Bn level) 5) Major Action appendix 6) SS and Heer unit availability lists to aid purchase (which combine as you experience gain) 7) Vehicle availability charts 41-45 I'll send you v1.9 tomorrow.

I'm trying to work out roughly how often, if ever, Heer fought infantry only type battles (as in CMBB infantry only with no armour and no vehicles) against Soviet either combined arms or armoured formations? I suspect it must have happened given the amount of infantry Germany had compared to armour etc but I would assume any German commander would try to ensure that where intell suggested they would be going up against armour, their forces would have atleast something by way of support. On the attack I find towed PAK is OK against armour except you are not even allowed vehicles to tow it into combat position in 'Infantry only.' Man-handling it is OK but slow on a 32 turn medium map. Does anyone have any data/info that might assist? I'm trying to work out some amendments for campaign rules and want to ensure that I am not forcing myself to fight pitched battles between infantry and armour on too much of a non-historic basis. I'm intereseted in 41-42 at moment.

I am trying to getter a better feel for the use of the above, mainly for Heer but also for SS Pzr Gr at both the company and battalion level. As the war progressed I am working on the assumption that SS Pzr would have had less use for IGs because of their need for mobility. I am also assuming that, except of defence, Stugs took over a lot for the Heer as they became more common. In particular I am keen to differntiate between the use of the 75mm IG 1918 and the 75mm Howitzer. Who had them, how many and what for? At present I tend to deploy few 75mm Hoitzers on map, trating them as higher level assets behid the lines with fire called in by an FO. I use mainly IG 1918s when I take 'on-map' but am wondering whether I am depriving my troops of the better weapon as the war progressed? When using on-map IGs were the 75mm howitzers as common as IGs or were they totally different? Finally 88s. Presumably a lot less in number and AFAIK the 88 flak were not concentrated in and around Berlin. Is that correct? If not, were there many instances (in the CMBB theatre) of 88 Flak being used in the AT role as opposed to the 88 PAK 43. If so, again, numbers, availability and who would get them. Any views welcome? [ February 03, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Cool :cool:

Nice one Peterk. Biltong, just a thought and I'm not sure if the notes explain it but, when players are choosing the map type type, which Force Size do they base the modifiers on? The size of THEIR force or the size of the QB battle setting? Once I've completed the changes for my battalion version I'll send them to you. I've made some changes you may be interested in and it may help with 42. You know the two main ones but there are others. For instance, I roll to determine a % that you must spend on air for air/arty rather than just having an Air rule. It prevents having to blow vast sums on aircraft which, in terms of success, I doubt reflect the points they cost. If I do qualify for Air I roll to see if I must spend 25%, 50% or 75% of the arty points on it, never 100% (so I always get some arty). I have also cut out Massive damage. My max is now heavy. May help those with slower systems as I believe damage slows it down a lot (I presume you can turn that detail down though - not sure).

CMMOS is a piece of cake. You have do do anythin with the rules. Just DL CMMOS, DL and install the rules, and DL the mods. It even automatically backs up your original bmp files so if you don't like the mods you just installed you can easily revert back.

For Stalingrad I'd be tempted to DL the Stalinngrad pack from Boots and Tracks, check out the chronology doc, ask the designers if they'd mind if their maps are used and sort of 'hard code' the playing of Stalingrad into the rules with the maps and battle types predetermined to be played as per the chronology. Might save a LOT of work.

Interesting posts, some good ideas here. On the FOW front I must admit I always use EFOW but I sometimes wonder whether the setting is a little too extreme. Some of those I play are starting to move towards the FULL rather than EXTREME. Any views in the context of this topic?

For anyone that's missed it, DDs pack is now CMMOS compatible and up at CMHQ.

Thanks for responses. I'll start trialling the 'rules' asap and get back in due course. Will take me some time mind.

Yes, for you it will be the Task Force. You have to remember I use a slightly different version where I roll for a number of points that are added on to a 'Standard Battle' (currently that is 500). The points are not broken down into categories. If I'm playing the armoured SS Pz Gr Bn they obviously get a lot more points (I use a different sheet) for the same die numbers than would the Heer 'vanilla' infantry (mainly becasue the SS outfit, being armoured/mech, has so much expensive equipment I have to ramp up their points to allow them to afford it). I then use another sheet to tell me what CMBB would allow me to spend on the various categories (you see, I do set the Force Mix on my QB, if I roll an infantry only force, that's what I get, not infantry and some tanks and some vehicles etc.). A further roll then limits the amount CMBB will allow me to spend. You don't get to lose any of your overall spend though as a lot of the categories allow you to spend 100% on infantry or armour, if your CMBB allowed spend is reduced I just take extra infantry etc. So my points will be spent on whatever I want from the 'battalion shopping list' provided a)the force mix I roll up and set for the QB allows it and it is realistic (e.g. not a company of Tigers or 4 x 150mm FOs!). It is those elements of the battalion which race to the support of the counter attacked company or companies Also, please note, the delayed replacements is something that is rolled for after any battle where you lose AFVs, not just the immediate counters. They are two separate rules: 1) Delayed replacements 2) Immediate counter - support level and arrival times. If you have any queries, let me know.

I like the sound of them and will give them a try. If they work out OK I'll include them in my version of the BCR ruleset (giving you credit of course) if you don't mind. I'll perhaps post some feedback afet 15-20 battles or so. Would there be any value in adding any further 'considerations' to emulate bn level support and/or limit the numbers/ratio of arty (e.g. perhaps not entirely realistic to buy 2 x 150, 3 x 105 2 x 81 and 1 120mm - not sure if anyone could ever afford this mind or whether the pre-determined artillery 'bias' in a QB will let you)?

Breathes sigh of relief

I keep getting 'Page Cannot Be Displayed'. Is it routine servicing or is there a problem?

Equally, neither Andreas or I were suggesting that Bn level support was the NORM for 2 companies. I think the point was, where a company or more has arty support AND a fairly critical mission they are likely to get arty support above battery level. If that critical, bn level. Personally I find the use of just 1 105 FO in support of an infantry company or two somewhat 'strange'. If the mission were not that critical I'd suggest they'd be more likely to have none than 1 (except of defence for counter-battery). Edited because I left out 'somewhat strange' [ January 26, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

I'm not sure discussion = complaining. If people don't want to modify or regulate the way artillery is purchasable or the way they use it - fine. Some do. Andreas, accept that (only around 1 in 3-4 of my infantry battles do I give them arty), should have made that clear. My main concern is getting the balance right for SS Pz Gr Inf Bn (Arm) and Heer Infantry (non bn) both of which I may deploy only 1-2 companies of at a time, sometimes the whole bn. :confused: [ January 26, 2003, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Biltong: Sounds good on platoons of tanks. German Tank Bns early war had 2 plt of light and 1 plt of medium tanks then that switched round as war progressed (42-43). So a platoon of I/II and a platoon of III/IV would be good. To improve the players 'knowledge' as the campaign goes on you could also try to change the composition of the tank platoons as the campaign progresses to match the availability of the tanks. E.g. 42 start IIIG/H then Js, then Ns etc. and then upgrade to the IVs with D, E F etc being swapped again as time goes on. By late '43 it will be 50% IVs and 50% Panther with the odd Tiger platoon showing up!! Infantry (non Pz) would get Stugs. Generally 3 per platoon or 2 Stug/1 Stuh. Not sure I quite explained my 'replacements' rules for Axis/Allied immediate counter attack very well, problem of a) rushing and me knowing exactly how they work and trying to cut down on writing. A quick example which may help to explain: You fight a battle with 1-2 coy of infantry and a platoon of tanks. Say 50% gets wiped out. For your next battle you again roll up the points you spend on the understanding that you do not get less than what you had before in the infantry/tank department (you will need those points to buy what you had at first in order to be able to march 50% off the screen). I stress that at the start of the battles you DO 'Withdraw' your original losses (you lost 'em, you pay the price). Now, this is the good part though, IF you roll up a greater number of points than you had in your last battle you DO get to buy the extra infantry and tanks, arty (whatever). BUT you then roll to see WHEN they will reach you, 25% through the battle, 50% or 75% (again whatever). In my game I use battalions AND if I have managed to lose 2/3 of the tank bn and I roll up above what I have left 'in the pool', tough (it can happen if you lose a lot of tanks AND have to wait 8 battles/days for replacements), I don't get them When the new battle starts you commence with your original force (minus the 50% casualties you march off the map which, because it is an immediate attack, WILL NOT get reinforcements in time) in whatever positions you choose. Anything else you bought (except off-map arty) is positioned as close as you can to one of your edges of the map. This represents the help the original force has called for and you MUST trust yourself not to move them to support the original force until either turn 10,20,30 or whatever is 25%, 50% etc. through the battle. If needed, you give them fire-arcs to stop them engaging targets (I have never had to) and work on the basis that you put them in the lowest ground you can to prevent them spotting for your original force OR being spotted. It works excellently. First time I did it I rolled up 2 extra platoons of tanks - great! Trouble was the battle was mid-day and clear skies, you can guess the rest. Soviet ground attack aircraft shot them up in their holding area (representing them being hammered while on their way to me) and I lost 5! Another time I had infantry and vehicles coming that had to cross a ridge to get to me. They caught a Soviet arty barrage as they came over the top and never managed to reach me. On other occassions the 'cavalry' has saved the day mind Imagine the Soviets surprise when 10 tankettes and a bn of infantry who were about to overrun my 2nd line of defence get all but wiped out as a platton of IVF2s show up on the top of a hill to left flank. Good timing or what? Bit of a nail biter though. An armored platoon of infantry in HTs rushed to the defensive lines and threw out 4 HMGs which, together with the 251/10 and 5 251/1s soon sent the infantry running. Smokin' Now, THAT'S what I call exciting! [ January 26, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Have I got the right idea then? If a CMBB battle involves a company, or even more a battalion, it would be highly likely to get bn strength arty support in 105s (3 - 4 FOs?) AND would generally target known troop positions with full loads (that tends to be what I do at the moment). OR it MAY get 150 support and either get 2 x 150 FOs and no 150 (or perhaps one) OR 1 x 150 and 1-2 105s. I'd also be interested in views on the TRPs too, so I can at least restrict my own use of them in the meantime. OR am I penailsing myself needlessly? Their cost seems to enable players to scatter them like confetti when in relaity I am not sure whether so many pinpointed targets would be acquired. I accept that on the defence (particularly of long duration) there are likely to be more (hence I 'allow' 3-4 per FO) but surely not on the attack. I personally prefer to limit as much to historical accuracy as possible and generally, by mutual agreement, devise 'rules' to restrict 'unhistoric' use, such as micro arty firing. generally players I play expect a barrage once it starts and ask questions if they only get 10 rounds (as do I). I would hope the new game re-write would offer either this as a revision or as one of many historical option switches. Perhaps there should be an overall historical switch and a 'gamey' switch. I do think the TRP issue also needs to be covered on both attack and defence if arty is to 'governed' effectively. Interesting posts. [ January 26, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Thx

I'm not sure the numbers are being given to prove the points made by the tests are they? Is it not a case of saying that this is what the tests show (AND arguing how CMBB can perhaps best be used to reflect historical deployment) and then trying to equate that type of game and real life usage to the type/number of munitions produced? Surely if the result of game or real usage would, in aggregate lead, to the use of 10x the number of rounds produced it would indicate that such use is innacurate. Figures aside, I do think the 105 modules are too expensive in CMBB to allow players who WISH to play with a degree of historical accuracy to do so. Given the availability of 105s over 150s the information above does confirm what I have thought for some time (but have never had the time/inclination to test): 81s are not too effective (I recently dumped 225 81 mm into approx 75m x 75m of 'Scattered Trees' which contained a platoon of well spotted troops, a Maxim or two and two AT guns - result, zilch). 105s are OK at Bn strength against relatively open targets (but CMBB cost makes historical use prohibitive resulting, IMHO, in atempts to use 'sniper' precision fire in chasing platoons around a battlefield). Low cost of TRPs creates the potential for players to have too many accurate plots identified for the numbers of 105 FOs they have which can, IMO, lead to the balance of targets being too much in favour of 'non-spotted' areas as opposed to 'spotted' concentrations of troops. and that 150s are perhaps closest to modelling (in terms of cost and effect) their real-life counterparts BUT, their lack of availability makes over use historically innacurate. I also wonder whether there is a need to limit the number of TRPs you can buy per FO dependant on type of mission in addition to upping the price (whether or not the cost of some FOs come down). I have seen some PBEM results with two FOs on the defence having 15+ TRPs? I am not sure what historical data there is to confirm my thoughts, and I am not an Arty expert, but it does seem rather high. I usually work on the basis of 1-2 TRPs per FO on the attack and max 3-4 on defence, less for 150s. Also, in terms of 1 -2 company level actions, what 'real life' consequences would this have had for commanders (for those wishing to be historically as correct as possible). Would 1 company really expect to get bn level 105 support? If not would the 'request' to allocate, given the poor effect, just 1 105 FO have been approved or would it have been considered a wasteful use of arty? Presumably the expectation of 150 support at company level would, on the same grounds, also be rare? [ January 26, 2003, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

Good luck with the work. I was hoping for some new ones too. I thought the various sky mods we got for CMBO were excellent.

Thanks Biltong, I got your reply. I had already changed the sheet in the meantime though. I couldn't help thinking that I was hitting myself twice for replacements. Now I don't. I work on the basis (probably slightly more historically correct) that German troops will be replaced on a sliding scale downwards as we progress through the campaign, esp by end 44 etc. However at moment I base them on Vet. What the revised sheet does do is punish you by dropping them to Regular if you keep getting them all killed and reward you by letting you get them to Crack if you keep doing excellent. I don't do a replacement calc now, I just look at the company (and I stress it is for company level), work out their total losses (roughly) and total kills and then just apply the scores which drops the company up or down in points. The green/reg/vet is what your company starts as and the rules assume replacements come in at same level. One thing I have devised for my amendments, which you MAY want to consider for 42 is the replacement delay for AFVs. As you know I use a full battalion of tanks for SS Pz Gr (Arm) Bn and a company of Stugs (with a platoon of Stuh) for Heer. If the vehicles get KO I work on the basis that it would perhaps not be likely to get it replaced next day. So I roll a dice to determine a delay of either 0, 2, 4, 8 or 10 battles. That is not for each vehicle lost, it's rolled up at the end as a general logistics parameter covering every AFV you lose that time. I lost 6 tanks for 8 battles last time and I'm still suffering having been hit with 2 x 3000 points Armored in a row Teaches you to be even more carful with an AFV if it might not come back for a while Another thing I'm looking at is counter attacks by both sides. The way I see it, it is highly likely that the outfit you played with before the counter will not get raplacements and therefore you should march the right number of 'dead' off the map. However, what I may do is allow the both sides to roll up troops/points accordingly on the basis that my clobbered Axis troops will undoubtedly ask for back-up from the Bn which they may or may not get. I got all excited last night when I thought for a QB you could programme in reinforcements when buying for a QB, seems like you can't. What I was going to do is roll a die to see whether, aside from off map arty, any units the Axis rolled up over and above whatever troops were left from the previous battle would arrive 25%, 50% or 75% through the next battle. What I will now do is buy the originals left from the previous game (and march their dead off) AND whatever else the dice roll allows. I will then roll for WHEN they will arrive and I will buy those units and hopefully be able to place them somewhere safe at the rear of the map where they can do no harm or be harmed until they are due to arrive. If they are at the back of a treeless flat map it may pose problems but I could set them arcs to stop them firing (if they get KO'd it will be a problem). That said, with the new maps, pool table terrain is rare and there will probably always be somewhere out of the way where the reinforcements can effectively 'garaged' until scheduled to arrive. [ January 26, 2003, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]