LongLeftFlank

Jason, I think nobody's commented on this because nobody really disagrees with your case. One thing though, I don't know where you get your 1/2 mile square target area. I'm no expert on DBP (look John, I'm Wikiing too! ), but unless this is wrong.... However, even though you're more challenging to poke with a stick than Kettler, I may have bigger fish to fry.

JasonC posted this in the CMFI artillery thread and it got me thinking, so I brought it over here to kick around some more. Just wool-gathering at this point, but doing PTO Makin persuaded me that a great deal is possible with this game. I was thinking that it would not be impossible to build a reasonable simulacrum of the airstrip perimeter and bastions using tools available in CMBN. We don't have M24 tanks (yet), sure, or napalm, but the other tools are pretty much all there. British airborne make reasonable Viet Minh regulars -- mod faces and helmets, Stens to PPSh41, etc. In addition to being an interesting series of scenarios, perhaps we'd be able to test Jason's model above and see how quickly the historically available VM artillery would cut the French defenders to ribbons. Then calibrate how much it needs to be nerfed to obtain results more in line with reality. Right, now off to the library to reread Bernard Fall's book: the Wikipedia entry seemed pretty decent but need to confirm. A certain amount of OCD is also necessary in science.

Well hey, the Dictator next door has spent his entire adult life foaming at the mouth about Bolshevism; of course you're going to assume that sooner or later you'll be fighting his impressive war machine. And sometimes the best defence is a good offence, fine and dandy. So assuming that it doesn't get us shot for Trotskyite left deviationism, let's think about these things, work up some map exercises, etc. But that's a LONG way from supporting ICEBREAKER, especially that tosh about 15 airborne divisions sitting in the Crimea ready to flutter down and seize the Ploesti oilfields. I think all that time sitting around shivering while on spetsnaz exercises went to the guy's brain a little. He's the classic hammer looking for nails everywhere.

Just noticed this thread for the first time. Great project! What force are you thinking of using for the 2000 era Russian infantry? Syrian airborne troops maybe? I'm assuming body armour became standard for Russian forces after Chechnya, in imitation of Western practice. And they dumped those steel pot helmets even earlier than that, didn't they?

Suvorov is a brilliant storyteller and observer of the human condition -- AQUARIUM is on my top 20 list of favourite books -- but yeah, he's deep in fantasyland for anything he hasn't witnessed with his own eyes. That whole ICEBREAKER thesis (basically Hitler beat Stalin to the punch by 6 weeks) is pure rubbish, and is likely prompted by some other you-had-to-be-there agenda that was likely obsoleted by the fall of the Berlin Wall. Deep in vaults in Ottawa, I have no doubt, are contingency plans for the prompt military occupation and administration of portions of America in the event the Superpower decapitates itself up in a nuclear war that somehow spares Canada (what the heck is that novel called again?). The existence of documents does not imply intention to act. Even though if I'm put to it I'm sure I can cherry pick substantial "evidence" that Canuckian hordes are poised to swarm across the American border at any moment! Re the OP, it isn't all that surprising that by 1945 the Soviets had finally mastered the art of conducting deep insertions of airborne/airlanded combat detachments into enemy rear areas, even though they never tried that in Eastern Europe (Yugoslavia, maybe?). Just as the US had reached the point where it could almost casually drop Rangers or OSS men on top of Corregidor, prison camps, Thailand, etc. Complete mastery of the skies does help a lot (probably why neither side risked such tricks with the Germans, as moribund as the Luftwaffe was by then).

44 minutes in; SBurke continues to advance systematically and cautiously along two parallel boulevards, flushing out my Spies and a hidden RPG team as he clears the buildings. He screens his armour thoroughly with his infantry, plus an overwatch of snipers on various highrise rooftops for good measure (they're the ones who typically unearth the Spies). And halfway through, without warning 3 more FSA fighters dash boldly across the gunsights of his startled tanks and infantry to escape the closing vise. The US military calls these guys "squirters". Peter Murphy: The Line Between The Devil's Teeth

Thanks. Per my OP, I'm going stick to DAR/scenario design talk here and to resist the urge to comment on the NPR stuff you cite. Elsewise, at least one prolific Forum member will be here in about 5 seconds with 15 video clips, 8 red herrings and a partridge in a pear tree.... He and others are welcome to post here, but about this game, not current events or Really Supercool Russian Weapons That Wouldn't It Be Great To Have In CMSF. I'd like to but no, the AI simply cannot be programmed to systematically clear blocks while maintaining the kind of tight infantry-armour cooperation required to *not* leave dangling targets for the rebels to pounce on. SBurke, a veteran H2H player is finding it harrowing as is. By the same token, the AI simply does not know how to sneak and peak or hit and run against superior forces on an uncertain path and timetable in a MOUT environment. When they move, they take to the streets, generally at a run and don't change course until hit or routed. Once engaged, they stay engaged until hit or routed (permanently). Against tanks advancing along straight boulevards, this is suicidal! So no, there will be no AI version. Have you tried my Ramadi scenario? Similar environment (less hi rise though) -- in fact, Baba Amr is a modified version of that map. USMC forces are far weaker and the insurgents more numerous and more aggressive (as in the real battle), so dashing through the streets seeking point blank shootouts worked well there.

By the way, I'm sure the Himmelfahrts are an ancient Junker family and pillars of Brandenburg society, etc. But I can just imagine a "Life of Brian" type sequence at HQ, with General Kluge quizzing his guards "Und VOTS so funny about Oberst HIMMELFAHRT? ....He has a vife you know.... Her family name ist von KRAPPE!"

Good question. My take is that CM is a wargame. And wargames as distinct from most other games, are generally trying to represent (either simulate or improve upon) historical or contemporary battlefield unit tactics using weapons with (roughly) real-life capabilities, as opposed to fantasy gladiatorial combat involving a bullet-resistant superman lugging around a chaingun with infinite bullets. The great thing about CM2 is that unlike more abstract wargames, including CM1, you can choose to go "micro" at will, and for me, that's more than just eyecandy or making little war movies. At its very best, CMBN or CMSF can be about discovering exactly how it can be that a single freeking sniper has got an entire battalion advance hung up and stopped dead in its tracks. Which in an abstract command-level wargame either wouldn't ever happen or would leave the player saying WTF -- why isn't my battalion on the move? It's the old nursery rhyme: "for want of a nail the shoe was lost, etc." BFC has taken us if not to Horseshoe level, at least down to Rider level. Not perfectly (yet), but leagues beyond anything else on the market. Oh, and by "aestitically" you mean, resembling Pam Anderson, or sumfink?

Oh look, our liittle resident "one star troll" has visited here too. I notice he also hated on Aris' mods (!), Broadsword's Tunisia effort and some other fantastic stuff. I guess we Just Don't Measure Up, gents. And if we don't shape up pronto, he'll stop paying us!

Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point. But then the African swallow's non-migratory... No, the only thing I might be obsessing about is that the TacAI from early CMSF (fixed in 1.05 I believe) had squaddies spreading out upon reaching their destination so that in urban ops you'd end up with some hapless moron(s) swanning about in the street and getting wasted. I wouldn't want a similar kind of unintended zombie behaviour sneaking back in is all.... G1: So they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway. G2: Wait a minute! Supposing *two* swallows carried it together! G1: Nooo..... They'd have to have it on a line... G2: Well, simple! They'd just use a strand of creeper! G1: Wot, held under the dorsal guiding feathers? G2: Well, why not?

I think you have the truth of it there from a doctrine standpoint amd if that's what JK was saying then he's right. I think I proceed from the assumption that once heavy fire is encountered and men begin falling they go to ground and at that point tactical formation takes a back seat to cover-seeking. And that inasmuch as the assault resumes at all, it is in practice either a. a slow infiltration along a terrain feature like a ditch or treeline offering some cover (which is probably... you guessed it, single file) b. a series of frantic dashes from cover spot to cover spot by small teams; in that (highly stressful) case I'd take the shortest possible route and not worry about taking a dozen steps to my left first to please the Sergeant. And doctrine be damned! if Tommy hasn't been hit yet I'm gonna follow his path, just hopefully not so close that we both get hit. c. Resuming the broad front skirmish line **in the face of unsuppressed heavy fire** happens too no doubt, but I have difficulty believing it to be the practical norm in 1944. Context and terrain dependent I suppose. And perhaps troops longer on élan and shorter on battlefield experience do it more often, to their cost. This is all probably pounding the nail through the board at this point. But that's why I see some sense in how CMBN squaddies behave now, even though I'd be as happy as the next player to see some formation commands added. OK, I need to go play some Pink Floyd now..... Forward! he cried, from the rear, as the front rank died

Nobody except you mentioned anything about attacking in files. But I really think I'm done here... it's getting beyond stupid.

I must confess that I've gotten a little lost here too, Jason, but I think the core is this: In CM2, whenever infantry moves forward any distance, the little pixeltruppen in the subunit (squad, team) tend to sort themselves into little queues regardless of whether they are following linear terrin (ditches, hedges, roads whatever) or not, or whether they're actively under fire or not. Some folks have posted various comments to the effect that this is a serious game break, doesn't represent RL WWII tactics and leads to excessive casualties when guys are caught in defilade. I guess where I come down is that if CM infantry *needs* to move around in little clumps, I prefer follow-the-leader (preferably staying close to available linear cover) vs. spread-out-perpendicular-to-the-axis-of-advance as a default. At least for any game set subsequent to 1864. That's when JK came in with his Russian doctrine stuff.

I don't click on links from Russia, pictures included. Regardless, you need to state an affirmative case for some point of view, instead of just shoveling "data" at us and assuming that's somehow helpful or clarifying. You aren't a troll as such, John, since you clearly love the subject matter, don't engage in ad hominem baiting, and are trying very hard to be helpful. And you are even drifting away from the being the Forum crank-in-residence, since you also appear sincerely willing to learn from others. That's a positive step forward, no, really. But so much of what you post here still just.... adds more confusion, not less. I am truly sorry to be so nasty. But I just don't see any purpose in pursuing a discussion with you unless you're willing to state an actual hypothesis, e.g.: Russians Attacked In Line Abreast Wherever Possible And This Is Why That Makes Sense. .... and now it is the appropriate time to wheel out the sources. But do not use the sources AS the hypothesis, i.e. Russians Attacked In Line Abreast Wherever Possible Because These Five Pictures Tell Me That Is What They Did.

Part II: Revenge of TubeGuy = Priceless

And I would PAY to view an AAR of you vs Mord in a grudge match to the death!

Holiday snaps from SBurke's side of the hill....

But he hasn't left much of an opening.... yet

The screenie that gives SBurke fits as he starts picking his way along the main boulevard, block by block.

The armoured column sets off down the main commercial boulevard, passing as if on parade before the defaced portrait of the Divine Ruler, whose aloof, epicene smile adds no warmth to the leaden sky.

Here's a pano of the BLUE force setup, looking toward the objectives.

After a 6 month hiatus to work on Makin and le Carillon, I am drifting back to finish my H2H scenario on Syria, which I think means getting my playtest with SBurke going again (turn 42). Since I didn't want to dredge up all the political back-and-forthing from the previous thread, I decided to quote some of the CMSF-relevant posts to re-kick things off here. I was one of the major offenders last time, but let's try to keep this thread focused on the game and the scenario, and take any political debates, Kettler videos of Russian flying saucers in Tartus, etc. to separate threads.

So you contend that even in 1944 Russians weren't like normal rational human beings and being mindless Bolshevik subhumans in terror of their rat-faced commissars, ignored the cover of an available ditch or embankment in order to form nice Napoleonic rows that would have made Kutuzov (or Eisenstein) proud. And then obediently got mowed down advancing ("Urrah!") shoulder-to-shoulder on German machine gun nests, bayonets fixed. So it's a good thing the Red Army had endless new Asiatic hordes to clamber over the backs of their own dead to build a bridge of corpses all the way to Berlin. Put more simply, I think you're confusing formations used during the approach to contact with the actual engagement and killing of the enemy once said contact is made. By being spread out laterally, the motor rifle squad maximizes eyes out front and minimizes losses once the fireworks start (you know, most casualties occur in the first 7 seconds of a bump). Once the shooting starts, you have a snap second to say "Charge!!!!" if the enemy is that close or the firing is weak or you're clearly in a kill sack and the best way out is forward. John, I am willing to believe that green Russian leaders defaulted to that more often than other nationalities even in 1944, with grisly results, but none of what you've presented speaks to that. More likely though, everybody -- Bolshevik subhumans included! -- goes prone and seeks cover, each returning fire the best he can. That cover is seldom evenly spread across the terrain, even in farm fields. Men form small clumps around the best cover, converging on their combat leaders (the guys who aren't cowering) or machine guns. Or BMP as the case may be. Further movement forward proceeds from that basis, in small groups practicing a more or less refined version of bounding-and-firing -- the Napoleonic skirmish line or serrez les rangs! does NOT reform.

Wargamers? Topless beaches? The horror! The.... Horror!