LongLeftFlank

Agreed, but I think you misunderstand me. If one wanted to (I don't, personally), one could play one of the Dien Bien Phu hex wargames folks have alluded to above, much like Broadsword56 did with the Balkoski ST LO game. Then use that to figure out which specific actions you want to play through at CM scale. You'll indeed be playing for the rest of your days if you try to play through each and every action. The idea is that you create a single master CMBN map containing the basic topography and the outline of the various terrain features (sketched in clover or red dirt or whatever). Its only use is as a base template for smaller carve-out submaps. As you decide which of the most important, interesting or closely matched individual battalion level actions (60-150 minutes) you're interested in playing through, you flesh out the detailed terrain and fortifications on that submap and then build and play your CMBN scenario. Unfortunately, you're going to know the enemy's forces and plans unless you do it on a QB basis against a trusted opponent (with ground rules). That's what Broadsword56 does in Normandy using the ST LO boardgame; SBurke is his general opponent of choice, although I considered participating too until I got too swamped in other projects. Me, I'm not that ambitious; I don't even want to do a formal Campaign. I've now built two huge master maps -- downtown Ramadi (Iraq) and the Le Meauffe-Le Carillon area, with one submap scenario for each published to date. My intent is to do a series of closely researched historical scenarios that are effectively vignettes, illustrating how tactics evolved for both sides over time. That's why I'm not just cranking out glorified QBs. But I keep getting distracted by new things like Makin Atoll and now, DBP. Ah whatever, it's the journey not the destination. Understand, there's no way of automating this process at present. BFC is not going back down the CMC rabbit hole, at least not before true Co-Play materializes in some fashion. Even then it isn't likely IMHO.

Whose freekin' anthill mod are we using? Seriously, this thing looks more like Starship Troopers!

On the modding front, not that much new needed. About 5 of CoonDog's Japanese faces could also pass for Vietnamese kids. The British clamshell helmet with a large mesh works pretty well. Need someone to turn the StG44 into a PPSh41 with box clip.... cut the barrel length and add that barrel protector? (this is a visual only -- in game terms it will still behave like a Sten). The Chinese Bren/Nambu is good enuff even with the curved magazine. The IJA tan tunics will work (the Chinese-equipped 308th and dac cong shown here) -- maybe do a ragtag mix with some black pajamas for the less elite assault formations that Giap scraped together later in the battle from supply cadres. The other challenge will be to get those chest ammo pouches to show up....

Here are some examples of traditional wargames where, in contrast to CM, the scale is too *high* to provide any meaningful insights into what went down at DBP, other than "he had more guys (counters and combat factors) than you, and eventually you lost". True, at bottom, but not insightful to my mind.

I suspect he meant this way cool early German uberpanzer was used here about as intensively as anyplace short of the north pincer of Zitadelle. Face it, a lot of CMers, of all ages and grognard levels like to play around with the cool ubertanks now and then..... Nothing wrong with that.

Oh I'm just at the talking stage here. At some point I will be gainfully reemployed, at which time projects like this will go on the shelf and my forum post count will fall off, probably to the relief of some folks here. My focus to date has been on finishing the stuff I've already started but this idea intrigued me. I am also hoping some French grognard will float in here and run with the ball -- I can happily do the map but I have a lot less enthusiasm for the historical research that's needed to do a truly faithful historical scenario series. Ramadi and Makin were a LOT of freekin' work although I'm really glad I did them.

My own plate is far too full to volunteer for this project (in any case, I know very little about the modern Russian army), but good luck to you! I never bought the Brits module, so I actually have no idea whether the Syrian Airborne have body armour. If not, the Syrian Special Forces squads might do. To modernize the Syrian regime mech forces for my Baba Amr scenario, I bought a Guards motor rifle company, took their BMPs and then dismounted the Syrian squaddies, sticking them away in a corner as a Reinforcement group that "arrives" after the scenario (keep in mind they still count for casualty VC btw!). I then bought a Special Forces company, sans jeeps, and stuck them in the BMPs, using Ryujin's mod to put them in camo instead of riot team black. Voila, updated Syrian mech troops with body armour and less anachronistic helmets (you can always model swap the helmets if you don't like those steel riot gear pots). Mod the faces and voices and you've got Russian infantry squads -- splittable, with organic RPG-29s. No idea how closely that resembles their TOE in 2002, but it's definitely closer than the Syrian regulars.

WRT scale, I wouldn't bother with the outlying positions (Isabelle, Gabrielle, etc.), just focus on the airstrip perimeter. CMBN can handle map sizes up to about 2x2 km in practice which would be the "master map" -- each scenario would then be played out on a series of carve-out submaps. WRT sapping, the "digging" phase wouldn't be represented at CM scale of course. Not a very interesting game. What the scenario designer (not necessarily me -- maps are my sweet spot IMHO!) would do is modify the submap to add the trench lines for the appropriate scenario. Plus whatever fortifications have changed (built, destroyed) in the meantime. If what you're thinking of is for the VM player to stand in the shoes of General Giap, or a division commander and determine the sequence of the entire battle -- which positions to assault next and where the mineworks go, well, that's probably well beyond the pale for CM. For a campaign, the scenario "tree" just gets too complex. Broadsword56 has been trying something very interesting in that vein, playing out a VASSAL version of Balkoski's ST LO boardgame and then gaming out selected "fair fights" (i.e. could go either way) for key hexes using CMBN maps. His objective is less to "win the tournament" than to play out and understand at a granular level the foxhole level dynamics that drove the larger outcomes. "For want of a nail", all that. But I certainly don't have the free time to do that.... not even sure I have time to do this!

One initial thought: most of the effects of the prolonged bombardment on the defenders' bayonet strength (noncombatants aren't generally represented in CM of course) won't be gamed out. It will instead be predetermined -- reflected in the condition of the troops at the start of the scenario(s): - Reduced squad headcounts - Weakened/Unfit state - Lowered morale (or later, desperate fanaticism) - Disrupted C3 - Damaged fortifications Some of these factors also afflicted the VM forces over the course of the battle, for different reasons. One might argue that if this battle was largely an artillery slugfest, it is inappropriate to the CM scale since you have VM assaulting positions that have already been attrited by artillery pregame. Still potentially an interesting fight of course, since even the doomed defenders fought like tigers, but predetermined. Perhaps the right course of action would be to compare this effort with the prior battle of Na San, where the VM didn't bring in enough artillery and the French airhead was able to beat them off with heavy losses.

Merci bien! Of course I've spent enough time in the monsoon belt of Southeast Asia to know that those contour lines are just a start, pinning out the elevations. That entire valley will be intensely cut by rivulets and gullies, filled with brush and trees except where fields of fire have been cleared.

Jason, I think nobody's commented on this because nobody really disagrees with your case. One thing though, I don't know where you get your 1/2 mile square target area. I'm no expert on DBP (look John, I'm Wikiing too! ), but unless this is wrong.... However, even though you're more challenging to poke with a stick than Kettler, I may have bigger fish to fry.

JasonC posted this in the CMFI artillery thread and it got me thinking, so I brought it over here to kick around some more. Just wool-gathering at this point, but doing PTO Makin persuaded me that a great deal is possible with this game. I was thinking that it would not be impossible to build a reasonable simulacrum of the airstrip perimeter and bastions using tools available in CMBN. We don't have M24 tanks (yet), sure, or napalm, but the other tools are pretty much all there. British airborne make reasonable Viet Minh regulars -- mod faces and helmets, Stens to PPSh41, etc. In addition to being an interesting series of scenarios, perhaps we'd be able to test Jason's model above and see how quickly the historically available VM artillery would cut the French defenders to ribbons. Then calibrate how much it needs to be nerfed to obtain results more in line with reality. Right, now off to the library to reread Bernard Fall's book: the Wikipedia entry seemed pretty decent but need to confirm. A certain amount of OCD is also necessary in science.

Well hey, the Dictator next door has spent his entire adult life foaming at the mouth about Bolshevism; of course you're going to assume that sooner or later you'll be fighting his impressive war machine. And sometimes the best defence is a good offence, fine and dandy. So assuming that it doesn't get us shot for Trotskyite left deviationism, let's think about these things, work up some map exercises, etc. But that's a LONG way from supporting ICEBREAKER, especially that tosh about 15 airborne divisions sitting in the Crimea ready to flutter down and seize the Ploesti oilfields. I think all that time sitting around shivering while on spetsnaz exercises went to the guy's brain a little. He's the classic hammer looking for nails everywhere.

Just noticed this thread for the first time. Great project! What force are you thinking of using for the 2000 era Russian infantry? Syrian airborne troops maybe? I'm assuming body armour became standard for Russian forces after Chechnya, in imitation of Western practice. And they dumped those steel pot helmets even earlier than that, didn't they?

Suvorov is a brilliant storyteller and observer of the human condition -- AQUARIUM is on my top 20 list of favourite books -- but yeah, he's deep in fantasyland for anything he hasn't witnessed with his own eyes. That whole ICEBREAKER thesis (basically Hitler beat Stalin to the punch by 6 weeks) is pure rubbish, and is likely prompted by some other you-had-to-be-there agenda that was likely obsoleted by the fall of the Berlin Wall. Deep in vaults in Ottawa, I have no doubt, are contingency plans for the prompt military occupation and administration of portions of America in the event the Superpower decapitates itself up in a nuclear war that somehow spares Canada (what the heck is that novel called again?). The existence of documents does not imply intention to act. Even though if I'm put to it I'm sure I can cherry pick substantial "evidence" that Canuckian hordes are poised to swarm across the American border at any moment! Re the OP, it isn't all that surprising that by 1945 the Soviets had finally mastered the art of conducting deep insertions of airborne/airlanded combat detachments into enemy rear areas, even though they never tried that in Eastern Europe (Yugoslavia, maybe?). Just as the US had reached the point where it could almost casually drop Rangers or OSS men on top of Corregidor, prison camps, Thailand, etc. Complete mastery of the skies does help a lot (probably why neither side risked such tricks with the Germans, as moribund as the Luftwaffe was by then).

44 minutes in; SBurke continues to advance systematically and cautiously along two parallel boulevards, flushing out my Spies and a hidden RPG team as he clears the buildings. He screens his armour thoroughly with his infantry, plus an overwatch of snipers on various highrise rooftops for good measure (they're the ones who typically unearth the Spies). And halfway through, without warning 3 more FSA fighters dash boldly across the gunsights of his startled tanks and infantry to escape the closing vise. The US military calls these guys "squirters". Peter Murphy: The Line Between The Devil's Teeth

Thanks. Per my OP, I'm going stick to DAR/scenario design talk here and to resist the urge to comment on the NPR stuff you cite. Elsewise, at least one prolific Forum member will be here in about 5 seconds with 15 video clips, 8 red herrings and a partridge in a pear tree.... He and others are welcome to post here, but about this game, not current events or Really Supercool Russian Weapons That Wouldn't It Be Great To Have In CMSF. I'd like to but no, the AI simply cannot be programmed to systematically clear blocks while maintaining the kind of tight infantry-armour cooperation required to *not* leave dangling targets for the rebels to pounce on. SBurke, a veteran H2H player is finding it harrowing as is. By the same token, the AI simply does not know how to sneak and peak or hit and run against superior forces on an uncertain path and timetable in a MOUT environment. When they move, they take to the streets, generally at a run and don't change course until hit or routed. Once engaged, they stay engaged until hit or routed (permanently). Against tanks advancing along straight boulevards, this is suicidal! So no, there will be no AI version. Have you tried my Ramadi scenario? Similar environment (less hi rise though) -- in fact, Baba Amr is a modified version of that map. USMC forces are far weaker and the insurgents more numerous and more aggressive (as in the real battle), so dashing through the streets seeking point blank shootouts worked well there.

By the way, I'm sure the Himmelfahrts are an ancient Junker family and pillars of Brandenburg society, etc. But I can just imagine a "Life of Brian" type sequence at HQ, with General Kluge quizzing his guards "Und VOTS so funny about Oberst HIMMELFAHRT? ....He has a vife you know.... Her family name ist von KRAPPE!"

Good question. My take is that CM is a wargame. And wargames as distinct from most other games, are generally trying to represent (either simulate or improve upon) historical or contemporary battlefield unit tactics using weapons with (roughly) real-life capabilities, as opposed to fantasy gladiatorial combat involving a bullet-resistant superman lugging around a chaingun with infinite bullets. The great thing about CM2 is that unlike more abstract wargames, including CM1, you can choose to go "micro" at will, and for me, that's more than just eyecandy or making little war movies. At its very best, CMBN or CMSF can be about discovering exactly how it can be that a single freeking sniper has got an entire battalion advance hung up and stopped dead in its tracks. Which in an abstract command-level wargame either wouldn't ever happen or would leave the player saying WTF -- why isn't my battalion on the move? It's the old nursery rhyme: "for want of a nail the shoe was lost, etc." BFC has taken us if not to Horseshoe level, at least down to Rider level. Not perfectly (yet), but leagues beyond anything else on the market. Oh, and by "aestitically" you mean, resembling Pam Anderson, or sumfink?

Oh look, our liittle resident "one star troll" has visited here too. I notice he also hated on Aris' mods (!), Broadsword's Tunisia effort and some other fantastic stuff. I guess we Just Don't Measure Up, gents. And if we don't shape up pronto, he'll stop paying us!

Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point. But then the African swallow's non-migratory... No, the only thing I might be obsessing about is that the TacAI from early CMSF (fixed in 1.05 I believe) had squaddies spreading out upon reaching their destination so that in urban ops you'd end up with some hapless moron(s) swanning about in the street and getting wasted. I wouldn't want a similar kind of unintended zombie behaviour sneaking back in is all.... G1: So they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway. G2: Wait a minute! Supposing *two* swallows carried it together! G1: Nooo..... They'd have to have it on a line... G2: Well, simple! They'd just use a strand of creeper! G1: Wot, held under the dorsal guiding feathers? G2: Well, why not?

I think you have the truth of it there from a doctrine standpoint amd if that's what JK was saying then he's right. I think I proceed from the assumption that once heavy fire is encountered and men begin falling they go to ground and at that point tactical formation takes a back seat to cover-seeking. And that inasmuch as the assault resumes at all, it is in practice either a. a slow infiltration along a terrain feature like a ditch or treeline offering some cover (which is probably... you guessed it, single file) b. a series of frantic dashes from cover spot to cover spot by small teams; in that (highly stressful) case I'd take the shortest possible route and not worry about taking a dozen steps to my left first to please the Sergeant. And doctrine be damned! if Tommy hasn't been hit yet I'm gonna follow his path, just hopefully not so close that we both get hit. c. Resuming the broad front skirmish line **in the face of unsuppressed heavy fire** happens too no doubt, but I have difficulty believing it to be the practical norm in 1944. Context and terrain dependent I suppose. And perhaps troops longer on élan and shorter on battlefield experience do it more often, to their cost. This is all probably pounding the nail through the board at this point. But that's why I see some sense in how CMBN squaddies behave now, even though I'd be as happy as the next player to see some formation commands added. OK, I need to go play some Pink Floyd now..... Forward! he cried, from the rear, as the front rank died

Nobody except you mentioned anything about attacking in files. But I really think I'm done here... it's getting beyond stupid.

I must confess that I've gotten a little lost here too, Jason, but I think the core is this: In CM2, whenever infantry moves forward any distance, the little pixeltruppen in the subunit (squad, team) tend to sort themselves into little queues regardless of whether they are following linear terrin (ditches, hedges, roads whatever) or not, or whether they're actively under fire or not. Some folks have posted various comments to the effect that this is a serious game break, doesn't represent RL WWII tactics and leads to excessive casualties when guys are caught in defilade. I guess where I come down is that if CM infantry *needs* to move around in little clumps, I prefer follow-the-leader (preferably staying close to available linear cover) vs. spread-out-perpendicular-to-the-axis-of-advance as a default. At least for any game set subsequent to 1864. That's when JK came in with his Russian doctrine stuff.

I don't click on links from Russia, pictures included. Regardless, you need to state an affirmative case for some point of view, instead of just shoveling "data" at us and assuming that's somehow helpful or clarifying. You aren't a troll as such, John, since you clearly love the subject matter, don't engage in ad hominem baiting, and are trying very hard to be helpful. And you are even drifting away from the being the Forum crank-in-residence, since you also appear sincerely willing to learn from others. That's a positive step forward, no, really. But so much of what you post here still just.... adds more confusion, not less. I am truly sorry to be so nasty. But I just don't see any purpose in pursuing a discussion with you unless you're willing to state an actual hypothesis, e.g.: Russians Attacked In Line Abreast Wherever Possible And This Is Why That Makes Sense. .... and now it is the appropriate time to wheel out the sources. But do not use the sources AS the hypothesis, i.e. Russians Attacked In Line Abreast Wherever Possible Because These Five Pictures Tell Me That Is What They Did.