PanzerLeader

And what about us Europeans? After all this is the continent where CM took place!! So a showing of the beta would be most suited to Europe, the game would feel at home here Another vote for London, UK.

Glenn, to get to CMHQ follow the link that Madmatt included in his reply, right at the end of the message.

Great stuff sbakker!! An interesting read , since it wasn't written by historians but commanders who were out there and have lots of combat experience...

Tommi, yes obviously by saying Germany could exploit the oil fields in the Middle East I was talking about the long term, after making peace with Britain(assuming Britain surrenders after losing her colonies...) Djuga, what do you mean by "to make peace with the countries they had conquered so far"? Germany was at peace with France, Belgium and the Netherlands I think...By "making peace" do you mean destroy all partisan activity?

Good point Tommi, in fact the only realistic option Germany had after France'40 was to attack the British bases in the Mediterranean with the Italians: Malta, Gibraltar, Egypt, and then the Middle East. A concerted attack there, where the Brits were quite weak at the time, had every chance of succeeding, thus cutting Britain off and isolating it from its colonies, most importantly India. In addition it would have placed the German Army in a favourable starting position against the Russkies, after defeating the British(via Turkey and the Caucasus), plus Hitler could have used the oil fields in the Middle East. At least that's what Guderian thinks.

It is mostly thanks to Hitler's approval that Guderian and some others successfully applied the Blitzkrieg tactics to the German Army. Before Hitler most of the Wehrmacht officers were very conservative and wanted tanks to have primarily an infantry support role. Hitler very early on saw in the Blitzkrieg what he needed: a tactic that could win him the war as quickly as possible. Here again Madmatt's point is emphasized.

Hey, what about killing not just civilians, but also wounded civilians? March 1943, the 1SS PanzerKorps under Paul "Papa" Hausser recaptures Kharkov thus putting an end to the Soviet Stalingrad counter offensive. Proud of their achievement, some soldiers enter a hospital where they murder some 200 sick or wounded, civilians and Russian soldiers. So that was their reward for taking the damned city once again.

Hehe, the poor man should have written "WEHRMACHT" on his licence plate, if he's a military buff... It wasn't an evil organisation, so the PC people couldn't have blamed him! And I agree with Delta Charlie that some in modern music should get arrested or should get some sort of penalty, they're waay too insane to be tolerated in society.

I completely agree with Gespenster about the Western Front, in the year 1944 the Germans mainly lost because of the Allied air superiority. Their tanks were superior, and infantry veterans of the EF were much more valuable than your regular GI...After the Ardennes offensive the German Army on the ground wasn't a match anymore for the Allies. Too many losses. As for the Russkies' high losses, I think it's normal for a kolkhoz farmer in a T34 to lose a tank duel against Wittman in a Tiger

12th SS PanzerDivision...Isn't that the HitlerJugend Division, that fought against the Canadians in Normandy, and led by the brilliant Kurt "Panzer" Meyer?

The Campaign Series lets you play much larger battles than in CM, the scale goes up to Corps level, but personally I find that the best scenarios are at regiment level. It is grand tactics: you cannot control every single squad or tank as in CM, instead one unit represents a platoon. I find that lack of precision(they still use hexes and it is turn based...) is largely compensated by great flexibility. And the graphics are neater than in CM, too. Much more pleasing to the eye. Those games have given me hours, maybe entire days of enjoyment.

Manieri, thrashing Talonsoft like this is plain stupid. You cannot compare wargames of different scales. I know many people who play TOAW a lot and CM beta demo too, both games are complementary. Tactics is the art of fighting individual battles where the range of the different direct fire weapons comes into play. The operational art is the art of combining battles so as to reach a strategic goal. Military strategy is the art of combining operations along the entire front, to capture territory or eliminate enemy troops. Now Manieri, please meditate on that...It won't do you anything bad... [This message has been edited by PanzerLeader (edited 02-17-2000).]

Colin, we're talking about the beta demo, which was released early in november 1999 if I remember well!!

AOE, CC4...Now that's wargaming's decadence... If only I knew the email adresses of all the idiots who voted for these two games I'd play a few nasty tricks on them and hunt them down with computer viruses Long live CM, WF/EF2, TOAW, SP WW2, and other realistic wargames!!!

LOL Major Tom!

Excellent. You should buy it, I personally own the first two volumes(39-42) and so far it's been incredibly immersive and well done. I plan to get volume 3 soon. The original music particularly caught my attention, you don't get that kind of stuff on the Discovery Channel.

Aheemm...April the 10th And what about two possible winners? You'd have to buy two games, Culex Pipiens...Or maybe divide one in two, if at all possible?

John Kettler, I have seen Stalingrad and I think it is great. However this is the only EF movie available out there(I'm not talking about all the ones that are good but impossible to find anywhere). In comparison to the amount of pro-american **** movies covering the Ardennes offensive of 44 or Normandy... And what about a movie on the early war 39-41? Anything wrong with that? Are the people so scared about watching german Blitzkrieg beating up the Allies?

They should do a movie on the Eastern Front...soon. A movie based on "The Forgotten Soldier" would make SPR look like a Walt Disney production And it would also kindly remind some Americans that they were not alone out there.

Haha! Well done Fionn, I didn't have a hint that somebody was playing a trick on us like this!

Excellent job Wittman! I found the advice very interesting...

According to many historians and German generals(including Guderian I think), Germany's only sensible option in the summer of 40 was not to directly attack Britain(SeaLion)nor Russia, but to threaten her Empire by attacking in the Mediterranean against Egypt, Malta, Gibraltar and then the Middle East. Such a move would also have given the Wehrmacht the possibility to attack, much later of course, Russia via the Caucasus. Sealion without Air and Naval Superiority was probably too risky, and Russia...well that's history An excellent book on this general topic(could Germany have won WW2?) is "Hitler's War" by Heinz Magenheimer. It analyses Germany's strategic options and decisions throughout the war, from the summmer of '40 all the way to 45.

"Steve, please close this thread. It poisons the entire board." Closing this thread will only make some people feel very bitter. You can't make others shut up when such an important and potentially dangerous topic is being debated. That is not the solution. BTW, I don't see many people here "excusing the most inexcusable of acts". Only one in fact. And the topic of this discussion has changed a lot, too. I found Dschugaschwili's post very interesting. It opened up a whole new point of view for me when considering Hitler's military blunders in WW2. Just my thoughts...No offense intended obviously, Josh.

I play wargames first of all because I've always been interested in the art of War at all levels, so finishing a scenario successfully against the AI or a human gives me a nice feel of warm satisfaction...I also like to analyse things so a wargame is ideal for me 'cos it's so complex. Recreating past events, being in the exact same situation as that great commander 60 years ago is also fascinating. Finally, wargaming I feel might prepare me for my future job(I'd like to become an officer in the French Army later...)

My favorites are EF2/WF. The best simulation of regiment-division level combat out there. My dream would be to recreate the entire Russian front with the EF2 game engine...1000 players per side each commanding a regiment plus all the division commanders, corps commanders, army commanders...And supply and everything. You'd get a real sense of joy and pride when reporting to your commander that you have taken that or this great town or crossed this river...Now that would be realistic! TOAW. Waiting for Road to Moscow, this is the best operational-strategic level wargame. Oh, and since Manieri mentioned Commandos:BEL, I'll mention Half Life. It's my third favorite wargame Oh, and don't forget Grand Theft Auto, and Kingpin, and Unreal, and Quake3, and Thief, and Need for Speed2, and Diablo, and..........