Grognerd_Fogman

I've brought this up a couple of times in the past two weeks but I still haven't found a response to as why people are not willing to use Ambush markers early on in the game for all their rear forces that they wish no-one to recon (tanks, antitanks, guns etc...)and expose early on. All guns and HQ units can plot these things really really close to the other units (in command) and supposedly in version 1.05 they will make them stick to them even better than before so they won't open up when they see something a little beyond the marker. If they don't open up on the recon unit, it would really have to be close just to see it, especially when hidden too. You can still keep your normal spotting units un-markerized and unhidden (like half-squads reconners) and maybe a machine gun on each flank so that they can see better and take out a light skinned recon vehicle if encountered. Maybe this only seems to be working for me and others might see flaws with it or it's not to their liking for some reason. Would like to hear why people aren't willing to do it. Is there any inherent risks in doing something like this that I haven't seen? ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Lol, if she starts playing, what will her poor, poor hubby do? Watch Jerry Springer? A wives club is a great idea but what if, an I mean what if :USERNAME leaks on over to their forum? Might not be prudent... (Jus kidding USER ) ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Just wanted to say thanx much for your input Steve. You've been so cool in the support department. I am in no way trying to imply that you shouldn't keep striving to make this game even more life-like. It's just that this is what we have right now so lets tweak what we can and keep moving on. It really touched a nerve in me last night when some people label others as cheats for something the game allows us to do. I mean come on, cheat? Aint that a little strong? I could see if one was using a bug etc etc... or breaking an agreement to win the game but calling it cheating cause it don't fit someones idea of what a real person(s) would be ordered to do is kinda harsh. I can say that in at least every game I play I can find several "tactics" that would most likely be considered "gamey" that alot of people wouldn't even noticed unless pointed out to them. And I'm talking about many manuevres and roles for units that have nothing to do with the recon aspect Well, gotsta go to work now so will wrap it up. ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: BS you say? Think about it. One of the main reasons the fast jeep zigzag tactic is labled gamey is that it is sure suicide for the jeep. The dirty little secret that nobody here is talking about is the fact that all recon in CM is suicidal regardless of the tactics used. At least when it comes to vehicles. Whether or not your recce is going to die is not in question. They almost always do. The only question is will they expose enough of the enemy's positions before they die to make the expenditure of points worth it. Has anyone read Fionn's latest AAR on MadMats site? For those who have not, in it Fionn dedicates 2 platoons of infantry and 3 Lynxes to recon. He does so explicitly stating that he fully expects them to be destoyed. And they are. His 3 Lynxes are dead by turn 3 and his 2 platoons largely decimated by turn 10. But he doesn't care because they've done their job. They have explosed the enemy and allowed him to bring superior firepower to bear upon them. Under the definitions given here this was quite gamey of him because he knew they were going to die, and if this had been a real battle the men would surely have known it as well and perhaps refused. (Note to Fionn if your reading: I don't think it was at all gamey I'm just using it as an example to prove a point). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And this is the kinda stuff I was alluding to in an earlier post. I have not played anyone that I can recall that got any usefulness out of a recon vehicle without putting it in great peril. No matter how they tried, either high gear and hell bent for leather searching or trying to secretly move from tree group to tree group. Usually when they did the latter they end up spotting hardly anything an get taken out by a shreck, MG or other unit early on. Answer me this people, when was the last time you had a couple of jeeps in a moderate sized battle and at least one was still around at the end? Now, how many tanks do you normally have at the end?. Probably more percentage wise for sure. Why even bother having jeeps and kubels for recon in the first place if you really can't do anything but be gamey with them or just use em as General transport vehicles in the back lines. I'm not into trying to compare CM to real life as some seem to be. When you can call this a true wargame *simulator* without any sacrifices, abstractions or whatever, then maybe we won't run into this so-called "cheating" gamey stuff and can develop real life sets of rules. For God sakes, this game gives us way more information concerning the battlefield than anything in real life back in WWII. I just think it's kinda funny that we spend so much time on a subject that really aint going to make or break this game and really aint a big friggin deal. Sheesh, we sit at our computers, clicking, dragging, drinking, smoking, eating hamsters and probably ruining our private lives with our families due to excess hours on this great game and then worry that something aint like it was back then??? I realize Charles and Steve might have had a vision of the most intense, lifelike wargame possible, but this is what the end product resulted in (fantastic gaming tho). What about all the newbies this game is drawing in now? You think they all should try an catch up on 1000's of WWII historical books about tactics, doctrines, OOB's and every other tiny nuance about that period? Hell, you're going to scare some of them away with what's being said on this board. They might think: "Hmmm, wow, I don't think I'll buy this game after all. Looks great but what if I do something in a PBEM that is not perfectly historically correct? They'll spread the word on the forum an I'll be labeled a "cheat" (Mannheim). No-one will even wanna play me if I do something wrong. I really didn't have time to read the 450,000 posts about how I should conduct my game in every grognard aspect so I guess I'll just stuff it in the back of my mind and go get Quake back out. At least no one tells me that fragging someone from behind was historically incorrect". All this hooplaw over minor play details and the game aint even close to being like life in the first place. It may be much nearer than other wargames have been but it's not by a long stretch. It's a hell of alot of fun and will be my only *game* for a long time to come. Now let me go see what Smoker1 is up to in our latest ladder battle. I tell you, if I catch him using Soviet tank platoon formations and battle doctrines using the American forces I'll have his head!!! Group Hug... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

O my God, I posted near the beginning of this thread but haven't checked in for a bit. Wow, what a verbose one this turned out to be. I just have a couple of things or three to add. 1. For CM2 could there be a new category for the recon vehicles? Allow only a few points for this type of unit so someone can't amass a killer jeep "gamey" scouting force. 2. I still can't understand why people won't hide their forces from early "gamey" recon by not setting lotsa ambush markers close up so they won't open up on em. 3. This is probably not a direct parallel but if I remember correctly the Japanese used kamikaze dudes that beforehand, knowing they would die, willingly crashed into our Pacific fleet. Some even knowing that the war was most likely lost! Now I realize that US/ALLY military guys might disobey orders 99.9% of the time in this type of situation but there were people that did do extreme things like this. So I wonder what would be acceptable if instead of plane crashing to kill themselves for the motherland, they utilized kamikaze jeep drivers on the islands. Hmmm, probably sounds better on your tombstone to have gone head-in an whacked a US battleship then to say I found a battalion in the woods with my jeep and used my breast pocket parakeet to warn HQ just before I croaked... LOL...just kidding guys, I just wanted to liven up this thread. 4. I guess I just had a beef with how people described "gamey" tactics that were not bugs or obvious flaws in program design. It seemed to be in the negative tense. Like if you do anything remotely suspicious of this behavior, it's kinda like holding an unfair advantage. I realize that the majority of commanders in their right mind would never do this but this recon thing is not nowhere near as bad as some other games out there. Like certain RTS games that use "tank rush" tactics knowing full well that the other side absolutely cannot stop it due to non-balanced game design issues. I just don't feel this is a big deal in CM due to the fact both sides can employ similar tactics without one side or the other getting an advantage. I guess people have to agree before they start a game. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe agree to only so many units of that type. Having to end up with recon units within so many meters of trees or else he has to be marched back to the rear and not used again or else default the game. 5. Lastly I would like to throw this hypothetical question out for thought to the non-gamey types out there: It's the last turn of an important ladder/tournament PBEM match and you find that you only have a couple of non-MG jeeps left that could possibly reach the last two enemy held victory locations that you do not occupy whatsoever. You will lose if you don't at least halve them with the enemy. You do know for sure that there is at least one shreck squad at each location. If you thought your two unarmed jeeps could get there at the last second before time ran out on the last turn and win the game for you, would you gamily rush and plant them there even knowing they had a great chance to be smacked? I say gamily because I don't think many jeeps in this situation would rush locations such as this to help halve a flag... Have a cool day all!... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

You should know that to become a full member that 2 criteria must be met. The first being that at least 10 of your 30 posts should make some reference to either a hamster or a gerbil. An the second being that the CM Borg needs to simulate you officialy (standby for sting)... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Sorry Valdor, I didn't get my point across too well. What I meant was that I really don't consider it gamey using certain recon units in whatever way people want to use them, even knowing that almost surely they're going to get slaughtered. Almost every game I have played either me or my opponent lose all recon units in the first few turns, especially if they've been effective. No matter if they try an use cover or not, eventually they get waxed due to the nature of what recon units do and are. They're fast, under strength and under armored vehicles used for scouting. I do happen to keep them a little longer if I try hard to go from cover to cover but then I usually don't accomplish much. No matter which method you use (run or duck) ya gotta figure that the process of uncovering the enemy almost always involves them seeing you at some point and almost everything on the battlefield is willing to fire on them if allowed These vehicles just can't withstand even so much as a gerbil coughing at them before they die. If people run around willy nilly and try and use cover to preserve them (like real life?) then how much can they really uncover? Usually not much. Hmmm, lets see, I've found that no-one is here out in the open, super!, now I'll go park back at HQ. I've used several recon techniques and have no problem with what my opponent does as long as he's not exploiting a bug or not following an agreement made etc... The anology to Fionns game was that he was certain that the recon platoon was most certainly going to be wiped out but was worth it if it produced the desired effect. Also it's worthy to note that he doesn't always have them in cover. Sometimes they're on a bare naked hilltop or running for long distances in the open. As long as it serves a tactical purpose people will use it. We do this all the time in real life and in games. Even in real war, commanders will knowingly sacrifice the few for the greater good. I really wonder what the turnover percentage for recon outfits were in WWII? I'm sure it was way higher than even the frontline troops. No game is ever gonna be what we perceive to be like "real life". If I truly wanted real I would step outta my house an take some VD infested hamsters down to the inner city here and let them loose on the drug dealers... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

I notice this mostly with vehicle "sound" contacts only. I think it's normal as the troops are constantly trying to figure out where in the heck that thing is located (ear-balling). If you notice, it never happens with troops/vehicles in a visually identified solid state. You'll also notice that as the vehicle gets closer and closer it slows down in the jumping department. Hope this helps... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

I agree with you here Tom. If people don't want to expose their troops to initial scouting then hide them with short range ambush markers set. As long as your vehicles are in a good visual hiding spot they shouldn't open up unless the recon gets super close. If this is a gamey tactic then you could consider Fionn's latest AAR kinda gamey. In the beginning he throws a platoon of half-squads out there in the open running from cover to cover directly at the enemy to scout out his position. I realize he is attempting to cover his guys with some tanks an stuff but he even states in certain words that "hey, if I lose a platoon to exposing and wiping out of a company (usually more for him), then I consider that an acceptable trade-off". Obviously he has to know that when he does this, his whole "recon" platoon is pretty much going to be doomed even before his reinforcements take up the slack. Same as poeple with recon vehicles. But it definitely is worth it's weight in gold more times than not. Of course when I send out recon troops, I end up spotting only armor, get wiped and end up begging to break even by the end of the battle I've also noticed that most of the people that don't like so-called gamey tactics (not bugs/exploits), are usually the ones that got beat by it. Too many people worry about the perfect real war etiquette and playing under severely controlled conditions. Well, I have read many, many accounts about WWII tactics/politics that would shock the average non-grognard ethical person. This game even makes many non real-life abstractions so it is not even close to the real stuff anyway. It's just awesomely fun and addictive. Lets just have a ball, bash eachother with insults and artillery and remember that wars are not run by gentleman with morals and nicely laid down rules... Oh, except for Smoker1 of course... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

To spear the Gerbils? ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Lol, you loser Smoker. Are you feeling a little bad in our current ladder game by finding my lil kittens this way? Come jus a lil closer, yeah that's it... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

GO SEAHAWKS...oops ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Oh come on you people. Of course I've heard of the fable like tales my grandmother used to tell me of the SS-HampsterTruppen habitrail death camps. And especially the dreaded GerbilsBagger troops in the Ardennes who used a particularly effective weapon known as the NeverHideADingsWaffle against the allies. As I highlighted on this tactic earlier this month, I'll go over it again in detail for the newbies just joining the forum. It involved a special GerbilsBagger unit armed with a caged "Ding". Supposedly this thing was the most ferocious animal ever caught by clothed man. On the scale of the Tazmanian Devil depicted in childish cartoons. These creatures existed soley on two food groups. One being a delicacy known as the waffle, and the other was human flesh (normally only a back-up). If an allied encampment was known to be nearby, one brave soul from this unit would stealthly at night, remove the Dings next days ration of 1 waffle and hide it. Early the next morning the animal would awaken to find it's breakfast had vanished and literally freak and the cage could barely contain it. Cautiously the dumb soul would approach the cage, get the creatures attention and point in the direction of the allied encampment, make a waffle feeding motion and then undo the cage door. I guess this is all it took to prove to it the allies were responsible and it was game over in short time. Now even though my grandmother was a trusty source and would never lie to me or even stretch the truth an iota, I will never believe such foo'bish tribble unless either I see it with my own eyes or it shows up on the Disney channel. However, to this day, just in case, I never keep any waffles at home. The flesh I can't do much about. Do some research from now on and get real people... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin! [This message has been edited by Grognerd_Fogman (edited 09-11-2000).]

I jus got ur stuff. I was wondering tho, have the undergarments for the troops been upgraded an high-res'd? ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Lighten up Francis Besides, if we don't let people exclaim there CM arrival joy here, then the Borg will have an easy work day. ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

I'm divorced and my girl friend took my VISA, you all are it...lol ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Slurping Jim Beam while crunching on a frozen TV dinner... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

*** CM Baby Borg Assistant *** Way to tell em daddy! Simulate!, Simulate! ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

My God hnh3_cm, that smiley lept at me an I think I wee'd my pants...lol ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

*** CM Borg Baby Assistant *** Welcome aboard Dal!! Being simulated only stings a little Did I do good daddy? Huh?, Huh?... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Madmatt I don't see that kinda pause happening at all. To test it, I just loaded up the tutorial scenario an played the German side (Ver 1.05). I placed the two identical PzIVg's on the road. I issued one a fast movement order and then continued with a reverse order back to the original starting spot (same orders issue). The other tank I gave the same fast order (parallel) to proceed the same distance on the road as the first tank. Clicked off of him an then went back to him and issued a reverse back to his original spot. Played it out and both tanks moved exactly the same. Is there something I missed? ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

My PBEM rule of thumb now is: Small Battle (1250pts or less) = 30 turns Medium Battle (1250pts - 2000pts) = 40 turns Large Battle (Above 2000pts) = 50 turns Only problem is running outta ammo in the Med/Large ones...lol, But at least if you wanna take your time you can. ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

Hiya there Henri. If ya notice when you first start the game the first few files are real small, like less than 20k. All these files are doing is transmitting the setup stuff (I.E. force choosing, conditions etc..). Then when player A does his first turn, the file is still small due to the fact it's only his movement/fire orders. Now when player B receives this file he also enters his movement/fire orders, the computer now crunches numbers and the resultant file for the first turn is the movie of the turn (big file). Player A receives movie, watches, then returns same big file back to player B to watch. The whole process is now repeated. Player B will do his next turn which only sends the small movement/fire order file back to player A, so on an so-forth. As the movies must be transmitted they have to be quite large. Hope this helps. ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!

When I played you my luck was running at bout 77% that game. I'm sure it will go up in the future...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco: The screens look really nice...I'm looking forward to it. Am I the only one, when looking at a screenshot, who moves his mouse to the edge of the screen to try and scroll the view?? DeanCo--<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL deanco buddy. Naw, ur not the only one, I still continue to do it. See?, I'm trying to do it right now!, subconsciously of course. ------------------ Thanks for Athskin!