deanco

-------------- "1.) On the assign keys issue, it is really not important here." I think it is. Not from a pacing standpoint, but from a 'habit' standpoint. If a guy has played 15 previous games and all 15 used the WASD keys to move, I could easily understand why he might want to remap the keys to his liking. In my particular case (french keyboard), the 'next unit' (+) button requires me to hold Shift down. I'd rather map a button that doesn't require a double keypress. Just because you don't need to get to the key quickly is no reason to ignore ergonomic design. As far as the mouse wheel zoom goes, c'mon everybody, join with me! MOUSE...WHEEL...ZOOM!! MOUSE...WHEEL...ZOOM!! MOUSE...WHEEL...ZOOM!! (Now, everyone stand up! Maybe we can get a 'wave' going!)

This is kinda my pet topic as I've always thought that CM and the wego system could appeal to a larger segment of the gaming public than just wargamers. I see 3 main "barriers to entry" here for the guy who usually plays Warcraft but wants something deeper. 1) Graphics. I think CMBB has made leaps and strides over CMBO. The texture work is excellent. Gone are the flourescent grass textures, the funky half spheres when a tank fires, and the squeaky clean tanks of unmodded CMBO. The doodads add interest and break up the landscape. It really looks like a pro package this time, straight out of the box. While not on the level of some recent games, the graphics are no longer an automatic putoff. Score one for CMBB. 2) The 'Rules' (Thanks Tarqulene). CMBB is more complex, yes, but it's not necessary to master every command to get a Minor Victory. One of CM's strong points is it's mouse driven interface, it's as pick-up-and-play as a complex game can get. So I don't think it's *such* a negative factor. My main barrier to entry is... 3) The Units: There's too many of 'em (and it's WWII's fault, not Steve's ), and the differences between them to the untrained eye are *still* too hard to understand. CMBO already had a lot, but it was *just* manageable. The strategy gamer needs to know 'what can kill what?' and 'how good is it at killing?' (or defending, moving, etc.) And he needs it clearly presented. Yes I know all that stuff is in the interface somewhere, but it's not coming across in a 'gamey' manner, you need to be a wargamer to understand it. (To be fair, the tank armor color coding is a welcome step in that direction.) So graphics: BIG plus. Too many units: possible minus. Voilà.

From an ergonomic and 'ease of use' POV, The current system *is* better than the old. In CMBO to had to hold down a key, in CMBB you don't have to. That's one less key press. From a game design standpoint, the fewer keys needed to play the game, the better. That's why most games map the Pause key to 'P', not 'Shift-Ctrl-Alt-P' I don't know what criteria you are using to make your evaluation other than 'I'm having a hard time getting used to it', so maybe I'm missing something here.

I asked loudly and repeatedly for the mouse wheel zoom in CMBB, to no avail. I believe (don't quote me on this) that the reason it was not included was to make sure the Mac and PC versions have the same functionality. I hope this feature makes it into a patch, at least. I really think it would add a lot.

Ok, I just finished playing both demo scenarios, and I think they're great, fantastic scenarios. Now, I know I can't just say that without throwing around some hard facts to defend my position. Well, here they are. 1) I won a minor victory attacking in Citadel, my first try. 2) I won a MAJOR VICTORY attacking in Yelnia Stare, my first try. I therefore conclude that I am VERY favoribly impressed with the quality of the demo scenarios, very favoribly impressed indeed. Had the outcome of my games been different (and there is every reason to believe that it should have been), I might have had a lesser opinion. But as it stands, I can only conclude that a) the scenarios are perfection personnified, and Steve and Charles have created a rich game engine where anything, literally ANYTHING, can happen. This should put the whole matter to rest.

Andreas, LOL. Yeah I saw the other thread.

"There's certainly a great "ooh" factor with the audio and video improvements." And those "ooh" factors are a major consideration in judging a game. Call it shallow, call it what you will. It's important to me. And I gotta thank this thread, because it made me download the demo to see what all the fuss was about. And the fact of downloading the demo from somewhere else and installing it on my hard drive put distance between me and the game, it sort of erased all the time I spent working on it, and I was able to judge it like I'd judge any demo. It was almost like I hadn't worked on the game at all, I was a punter. And I really, really, liked what I saw, no kidding. But I think I'm turning grog here. Because now I want real time shadows and dynamic lighting. Yep, I want more.

One of the major complaints is that the demo doesn't do a good job of hooking new clients. I break those new clients down into 2 categories. 1) Wargamers that haven't heard of CMBO (what rock are they living under?), and 2) gamers in general who like strategy games like Civ3 and RTS like, say, Sudden Strike. Hopefully I can assert (without starting a flame war) that Category 1 has significantly fewer people in it than Category 2. And from a category 2 POV, The CMBB demo does a waaaay better job of hooking new clients than the CMBO demo. Not because of the scenarios, but because everything looks TIGHT graphics and sound-wise. The textures on the tanks are a joy and marvel to behold. The grass and steppe look better because of the doodads and better texturing. Gone is the flourescent grass of the demo. The sky looks REALLY good. You got muzzle flashes and smoke now instead of those funky half-spheres when a tank fires. The trees look better. In short, the Warcraft 3 player that downloads the demo is not gonna erase it from his HD because of the graphics. And once we've overcome that hurdle well, that's one major hurdle overcome that will allow Joe Gamer to actually get into the game, which is the whole point. Although I woulda done some things different, I consider the CMBB demo vastly superior to the CMBO one in terms of hooking people that are new to the genre. Don't take my word for it, run the 2 side by side and tell me which one wins the eye candy title. [ September 09, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: deanco ]

Oh, Michael, I forgot: The counter where the unit portrait *used* to be. It would be really cool to 3D that up a bit, so you can barely see the thickness of the cardboard, get me?

WAAAHH!! It's got hexes! Counters! Bits of Combat Results Tables! Tooo much!!! Hey Michael, it's not really my trip, but I will say this. It's got a theme, and a concept, and the concept is continued throughout the interface, wherever possible. For that, it gets a 5.4 (out of 6) from the Russian judge. Nice work.

Hey Panzer Leader! Long time no see! How's it hangin'? OK, on to your request. Get this: The clipboard mod is already done for CMBB. It was supposed to be in the game, but didn't make the final cut, that's why it's done already. So you're in luck. As soon as the full game hits the...er, shelves? mail sacks? Anyway, when it hits the whatever, I'll mail you a copy. You da man, Panzer Leader! While I'm here, I may as well let y'all know my plans for the CMBB release. First, I will be writing up my experiences as a humble modder among the Big Boys, what it was like working with Steve and Charles, kind of a post mortem, and posting it on my site. I dunno, maybe some people will find it interesting. Secondly, I'm planning on making a Total Newbie Guide to CMBB, with the gameplay explained in a manner that people who are used to Warcraft 3 or whatever can understand, and publishing it on my site. My biggest *issue* with CMBB is that it is far more complex than CMBO and since it will be on shelves in Europe, it's possible that someone could pick it up because it's sitting next to Sudden Strike or Diablo or whatever. So the guide will be aimed at the non-wargamer but avid video game player. Finally, I've have an idea for a CMBB interface mod ever since I started working on CMBB. Once people get tired of looking at the same ol' same ol', I'll release that. After that, ummm, I dunno. We'll see. OK later all!

------------- I am not referring to any author/mod in particular: ------------- Nice try but no go, M Bates. We all know who you had in mind when you said that. The guy who made the Tank Girls mod, right? (BTW that was a damm nice mod) ------------ I accept also that 'total rubbish' was a silly thing to state. ------------ Yeah, I accept that as well since it was utterly without foundation (many people use and like my mods) and advanced without a shred of proof. But I suppose 'a silly thing to state' passes for a retraction around here, so I'll call us quits for now. Later.

Thanks bsd. Yeah, I'm reading it, but that's ok, a grog that doesn't bitch ain't a grog. • Some unit indicators (buttoned etc) now in illogical places (see below) Yep, we literally ran out of room, and there was no other place to put them. If you can go through all the indicator labels and figure out where buttoned, et al, can go, I'm sure Steve would like to hear about it. • The ALL CAPS font used in places is very ugly compared to the CMBO original. I assume you mean the individual Unit info (top line)? IIRC the CMBO version is in white typewritten letters. I don't know what was so beautiful about that, or why this version is so ugly, but once again, if you can make a better font, please do so. I'm sure it will be a popular mod. In alpha we went around and around with this issue until a compromise was found. "The interface and AAR are, well, dissapointing. Not as 'clean' as cmbo..." This is only to be expected. The amount of info being passed on to the player has gone up by around 30%. It's bound to be a little more cluttered. As far as the AAR screen goes, The AAR screen in CMBO sucked, period. If I want an Excel readout, I'll use Excel. When I play a video game though, I want something a little more colorful. Having said that, the font used in the AAR is 'wrong', meaning it's NOT the font I had in mind, and hopefully it may get fixed in the first patch. Despite repeated emails, somehow this detail slipped through the net in the final hectic days. "This is just a personal opinion, but ALL of the CMBO interface mods were total rubbish. Gimmicky graphical substitutions for perfectly good text originals." How nice of you, Mr. Bates. Remind me to say something nice about you the next time I see you. Care to explain WHY they were 'total rubbish'? Or is a simple assertion enough for you? OK, lookit, folks. Implementation of the GUI started 1 1/2 years ago. During that time, the interface underwent intense scrutiny by myself, Steve, and Charles. No detail was too small to look at. For example, the font used for the individual unit info. I have 17 copies of different 30002.bmps we tried, here on my computer. Finally one made the cut. Then it went to beta, and underwent the scrutiny of the groggiest of the grogs, for months. When something wasn't right, we changed it. Now, after playing the demo for three days, suddenly everyone's an expert when it comes to the GUI. All I can say is, once you have the full game and have played it for 2 or 3 monts, come back and we'll talk. I'm sure your comments will have some validity then. Until then, I really consider most (but not all) of the complaints here knee-jerk grogism. Flame away.

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by deanco: That answers that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One modder down, 3987 and counting to go....(you didn't really think you had the monopoly, did you?) ------------------ ------------------ Sorry, I should have said, 'That answers that as far as I am concerned.' You're certainly free to ask the other 4012 (as of 14-04-2002, 11:52 GMT) modders if they would be willing to mod an entire interface as a workaround for a driver problem that (at this point in time, according to Mattias) is no longer a problem. Post here if you find someone, OK Michael? I can tell from your first post that you're serious about this. The lighter tone of your last post doesn't fool me. Thanks.

I wasn't aware of that problem. I have a GeForce and have never had any of that happen to me. At any rate, it's much easier for you to revert to an earlier driver than it is for me to mod a whole interface. That answers that.

I like it. I shoulda thought of it myself, that's how much I like it. Fewer keystrokes are *always* better from an ergonomic point of view. I'll see if I can get the ear of the Masters of the Universe on this one. No promises are being made here.

The Warcraft III zip won't work for you, because things are not as they seem. Change the extension to .exe and open it with your favorite hex editor. Bingo, the source code to Windows XP.

Wo ho! I saw CM at my local video game store here in Paris! It's kind of a Mom and Pop store without the Mom part. I told the guy I was working on CM2, and he seemed quite impressed, but not enough to give me a discount... Anyway, what a far out impression to see CM in stores. Go BTS!

Yeah, I hope it impresses you as much as well. I'm happy with it so far, and there will be time enough to tweak it if something really isn't happening the way it should. So no worries.

So whose hand drawn (pixel by pixel) mud .jpg did you steal off the internet to do this one, you sorry excuse for an Applicationist??

Ahhh....good thing I stuck my nose in here. You're probably using my Gunmetal mod, aren't you? Take 30002B&W.bmp (it's in your BMP folder) and change its name to 30002.bmp, overwriting the old version. Goodbye blurry letters.

Schrullenhaft is da man! Da Renaissance man! My hat is off to you sir!

Thanks, everyone, for your (continued) support. I'm really pleased that so many people like, and use, what I've done. Although I'm a bit surprised that the Clipboard mod won, my bet woulda been on the Gunmetal. BTW, work on the CMBB interface is coming along nicely, and I'm real excited about the look. Steve and Charles have been absolute princes, just as nice, supportive, and encouraging as can be. Really, I think y'all will be pleased with what we've come up with. Bye now,

I think CM is closer to backgammon than chess myself. It's a game where a really good player could theoretically lose to a novice, it has the luck factor, and it's a game where the psychological factor (doubling cube) is very important.

Hey, Germanboy, if the shoe fits, wear it. Someone who DOESN'T have a hidden agenda would have read that line, thought, 'well, that person isn't me', and moved on. Or one would have thought. Or perhaps you are defending the rights of those unknown people who DO have a hidden agenda, if they exist. As for the free exchange of ideas, that is NOT what is happening here in this thread. What is happening here is this. A guy has an idea that has been discussed to death, and because of this he is shouted down in a most unceremonius manner. It's not discussion, it's browbeating. I've seen real discussions before, and sorry, but this ain't that. The recent 'discussion' on variable length turns and RTS is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. My point about the interface was not that people should stop using it, of course. My point was that my interfaces are unnecessary eyecandy as well, as are the hamster faces, the modded splash screens, etc. No tantrum meant at all.