Hamstersss

Great job, Tiger, is there any way this paint job adds 50mm of armor and gun? ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Pod, put on your helmet. Please, rather than look at this post anymore, do a search on "Crew" "Tank" "Target" and/or "+Goddammit +Why +Won't +My +Tank +Stop +Targeting +Crews +In +Villars +Bocage +Before +1.04). ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Let me just say that I learned my lesson and in no way endorse this thread. Really. I mean come on, do I look THAT stupid? Guys? Hello? On a serious note, the true graphical beauty of CM comes when you witness realistic warfare, squad size regardless, it's absolutely beautiful and the beauty isn't marrred by a nagging doubt as to its consistency (In my opinion). (Irregardless is not a word. Neither is forwards, backwards, already. Neither will I ever center around something nor shall I e.g. when I mean to i.e. I'm so sorry. AND "its" is possessive, "it's" is a contraction) ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

Units only receive credit for confirmed kills. Due to the incredibly poor visibility, your units killed the enemy without ever seeing a confirmed kill. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: To be blunt, all of the arguments saying that BTS should represent every soldier seperately are specious and unconvincing. Elijah - it does you no credit to advance a controversial opinion, and then to dismiss counterarguments as "bogus" or "silly." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Better I should call them specious and unconvincing rather than bogus and silly? Oh, and I have checked out those threads, now and back when, and they mainly consist of people against the idea saying the same thing they say now, "Clutter and not worth it." Its odd, all the photos and reels I've seen of WWII don't show a carpet of soldiers moving over the terrain like ants, do you suppose they used the 3-man squad to keep that from happening? ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

I don't appreciate the attack Major Tom. I'm sorry you can't afford a modern computer, don't take it out on me, though. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

I don't mean to be a wet blanket Tom, but wouldn't that logic follow to mean that we would all need 1ghz chips for the 5000 point games? My little P3-450 runs 5000 pointers just fine. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Ya, what Pham said. Also, when BTS comes around to lock this (And us) up, can you please then take a look at the Add. Tournament Save Feature posting, it has an important CMMC-related technical request to BTS. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

I am required, due to my blood oath to the CMMC, to bump this back up. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Commisar, We're having civilized debate, you're the one yelling like a loon. Joe (Shaw), Yar!!! Tank, Yes, there are pitfalls, but the scripted events would be directly tied to the situation of the squad. While I agree with your "Design Elegance" argument, and commend it, I don't think any of us ever say, "Ho hum, my three guys are throwing grenades at a King Tiger again." do you? ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Joe (Shaw), You chose to enter into this debate. I try my best to back up my opinions with evidence and expect others to do the same. When I am proven wrong (Or discovered to be a multitude of Hamsters) I have no problem with admitting it, regardless of my opinion. While by no means do I mean offense to anyone when I advocate this issue, I will also not let it go, as I think it is worthwhile. Addendum to JoePrivate, I'm not sure what you meant to accomplish by calling me a crank. I've responded to many people's posts (Most recently to L. Tankersly) and I don't think I've been unreasonable when I've done so. I'd also like to remind you that ad hominems do not add anything to any discussion. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley: I disagree with Elijah's reality-improvement argument; that is, I do not think that representing every man individually would increase the "reality" of the simulation. On the contrary, I contend it would decrease the reality, for practical (implementation) reasons. The reason doesn't have to do with graphics or clutter (although I think those are far from trivial issues) but on decision-making and other calculations. Assume for the moment that we've all taken a trip through the time machine and have a new, shrink-wrapped copy of "CM17:When Hamsters Attack" in our hands, complete with the vaunted new "One Hamster, One Figure" feature. What must CM17 do in order for this new feature not to suck? Every individual man needs to be able to take independent action and have a unique location while still remaining part of the squad/team. (This is central to Elijah's request in the first post of this thread; if you don't do this, then I contend that all you're doing is increasing clutter.) Presumably the player will still be issuing orders to squads rather than individuals. This means the game must be able to translate the basic movement and combat orders into individual actions for every member of every squad. Each man needs to move, take cover or fire independently. When squads advance, instead of all moving at once they should move by bounds in small groups. Some men are slower than others whether due to physical differences or because they're carrying different loads, but the squad has to stay more-or-less together. LOS and fire effects must be calculated individually for every man, because they are located in different places and possibly in dramatically different cover/concealment. The men need to react at least somewhat differently (it's not realistic for 12 men to all panic at the same instant, for example). This means CM17 must remember the state of mind of every person on the battlefield. Individual differences like initiative, leadership, etc. could (should?) also be factored in. We're starting to get close to the Close Combat model of soldier representation. (Not intended as a slam; I think CC took an interesting aproach to this idea, but I think it is spectacularly impractical at CM's scale.) I think I've probably only scratched the surface here. But my point is, if a game claims it models individual men, they for damn sure better be acting individually (and reasonably), or I'm going to cry foul. So we're tracking the positions of roughly 10 times the entities, for a start. We're also tracking additional information about each entity (every squad member belongs to a squad, just as every squad does to a platoon). We have approximately 100 times as many LOS checks to do during turn processing. (You could use heuristics to filter out a lot of these beforehand, I'll admit, but when the fighting gets thick and heavy this is what will be required, and where the lack will be most sorely felt.) Let's not forget the Individual AI layer that has to make decisions for every man on the battlefield, plus the new-and-improved Tactical AI that issues appropriate orders to individual members of each squad (Griggs, lay down covering fire with the BAR while Tompkins and Dizzy move up behind that rock. When they get there and open up with their rifles, the rest of you guys run forward to that wall.) So the Individual AI needs to be like the TacAI, but for 10 times as many figures, and the Tactical AI is essentially changed to another strategic AI (and instead of only one strategic AI execution per turn, you have one execution for EVERY SQUAD). Plus, I would contend that if you somehow managed to implement a system like the above, you would need to improve the fidelity of your terrain model by at least an order of magnitude as well. Abstractions for areas of woods, trees, and brush are ok if you're using an abstraction for the squad; but if you are tracking individual men I think you need individual trees, rocks and depressions or else you're not going to get "realistic" results anyway. [LOL - after submitting this I got to read the 15 or so messages that were posted while I was composing. Every soldier with a different face, Los? ;p ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tank, Your argument is sound on all points, especially your point regarding the loss of abstraction and its effect on the rest of the abstraction in the game. Tactical AI within squads is the biggest problem, I don't want more guys hanging out like the 3 guys do right now. However, the choice isn't between total realism and total abstraction. You can have a mid-point with abstract versions of squads taking cover, opening fire, panicking, etc. without making the full leap into a totally real battlefield. Templates for squads could be used to determine the animation, for instance a Fanatic template for when a squad should break and run but doesn't shows the twelve (Or less) members fighting in a reckless or heroic manner. This would happen by referencing Squad K3 (7/12) like so: K3-1 (Reckless_ScriptA) -Sarge is firing his Tommy like a madman. K3-2 (Reckless_ScriptB) -Johnson doesn't care about that damn MG42. K3-3 (Heroic_ScriptD) - Wilkins grabbed the BAR and he's holding off that entire FJ squad like some kinda hero! Etc... Thus BTS is still abstracting but at less of a level than now. This is not a leap into total realism (Which I realize now is what people think I am promoting) but rather a step forward. Then we could have MDMP-12 add new "Kelly's Heroes" scripts that change the actions of the squads. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu (Edited because, while I don't mind seeing a squad "Opening fire" when a squad is "Ovening fire" it can be a little too gory for me.) [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

Too many responses in too little time so I will move piecemeal. CM2 will not be out in a year. This directly contradicts what BTS has said about when the sequel will come out. However, even in a year, there will be a continuation of technology trends and there will be better systems. The resource issue is too esoteric to argue here. Men who have a firm understanding of the elements of this game (Armor penetration, squad tactics, etc.) do not have the same understanding of system resources. If BTS were to say, "We won't model full squads because it will bring our baseline system to its knees" then I will shut up. They know the code, which is as unique as a snowflake, not you, not me nor anyone else. With that, hopefully, out of the way, I'd like to stick with the gameplay issues. First, this bogus notion about clutter is just that. The crux of this argument is "Too much detail." People defend this argument by saying, "Its just a game." Those statements go against every other legitimate post on this board. We all crave MORE detail and less gameyness. Look at the requests for Rangers, Brumbaurs (sp?), rare varients of HTs, etc. and reconcile this for everyone's sudden defense of low detail. Yes it is a squad-level simulation, no you can't command individual troops but they're still there. Second, I'm very happy with my Tank/Squad compare and contrast, so I'm going to stick with it. I think it contradicts the argument used by full squad detractors if they support detailed representations of tanks and other vehicles, as more simplified version would be more easily managed. The same goes for the complex AFV related details I've mentioned before. There's my salvo. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

David, I have read these threads and, frankly, I don't think your arguments are valid. The ONLY valid argument is one of resources. The other arguments, that it is simply too much clutter and that they are unnecessary, are both just silly. First, if there is a grognard here who tells me, "That's too much clutter" and means it, they should have their membership revoked. The COs in WWII had to deal with it, why the heck can't you? Second, lack of neccesity. It could also be argued that it is not necessary that the tanks are represented in any kind of fancy way but this would be false, too. Having realistic representation of tanks makes for realistic command level decisions when looking at the battlefield, in the same way that 3-man squads are better than 1-man squads. I think everyone is defensive because they think I'm telling BTS that CM isn't good enough. This is as far from the truth as it gets. I think BTS has produced an amazing piece of work and yes, I'll buy CM2 without full squads. However, this same reasoning hasn't stopped Ferrari from making better cars. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Zulu, Not quite true. CM was created with, I assume, a baseline 300mhz-8mb vidcard box. The Athlon 1Ghz is only ~$450 right now and nVidia has moved Moore's Law into video cards. If CM2 has a classic dev cycle of 18-23 months, that means you could buy a modern powerhouse (Sans flatscreen monitor, mouse and keyboard, of course) for, roughly $399 when it comes out. And for those of us who want all that with big textures, we'll buy the 2-3ghz Mustangs and Willamettes (Er. Pentium 4s, what a stupid, stupid name) with the wildly powerful nVidia cards. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Having the full range makes it much more gamey. e.g. You could cover your front with cheap concript Volkstrum with Elite snipers and MGs in certain positions, one Crack SturmKompanie for a counterstrike and mix the rest of your line with Regular and Veteran troops. It would be fun but you'd be min-maxing and there would be little in the way of realism. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Jeff, You've missed my point entirely. Just because you can't command a tank to change ammo types, does that mean tungston rounds shouldn't be modeled? I don't want individual soldiers modeled so that I can order Johnson to run over there and shoot Hanz, I want individual soldiers modeled for REALISM. Computer wargame shorthand, just like pen and paper wargame shorthand, has nothing to do with making a game better, it has to do with keeping a player from performing psychoanalysis and trig while playing a game. If, however, we have computers powerful enough to handle it, we should take advantage of it as it improves the game. Otherwise, why not remove the complicated armor penetration algorithms and replace them with a d6-based, critical hit system? (Edited due to hatred of the word algorithm and its spelling) ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

Its been argued that showing all the men in an 8, 9, 12, etc. man squad, as well as all the guys on an HMG team and bazooka team would be: 1) A waste of resources. 2) Unnecessary. While I agree with the first point, in that I would rather have a BN level CM than a company level CM with 12 man squads, I feel that BTS should move toward full representation for realism's sake. Whether you like it or not, the shorthand display of your squads does not accurately portray their positioning or activities and you end up with a more complex version of the SP and CC shorthand issues. Therefor, for the same reason BTS has gone for realism with tank warfare, they should strive for realistic representation of squad actions. I don't think of this as a patch but if CM2 is going to include more realistic interiors, then it should also include more realistic squad representation. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu (Edited for minor changes and bolding and this smilie ) [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

Good god, Steve, you answer the dog posts, the hamster posts, the crumply posts, the objectivist posts, the sewing machine posts, the CM8:Beyond Guadalajara posts, please answer this one. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

I'm bumping this back up and adding this solemn, dignified request: Please, BTS, please, please, please read this post and comment. We poor CMMC folk just want to have fun. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Um, Maximus, it was a joke brought on by this, er, gentleman's (Changed for BTS, I love you guys) rambling. I kinda figured that would be given away by the tone of the posting or the fact that my other five points were absolutely ludicrous. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-30-2000).]

I'm with whoever the hell this guy is. I want a refund. Let me add a few more bugs that I found: -No Russians (What, there were no Russians in WWII?) -Poor implementation of Nuclear weapons. -No AK47s -No Aliens -No chinchillas, hamsters, gerbils, voles, kangaroo rats, nutria or germanboys. -No MadMatt Mod Packs for the Amiga version. I'm using 1.05 installed by a monkey, a drunk monkey. But I'm sure it should work. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Lorak, This may be true but I doubt it and I have a simple proof for you: If your ancestors felt this way, you wouldn't be here. Self-preservation is a basic tenant of evolution and a very smart one. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Lorak, My beliefs have a lot to do with individuality, honor and the sanctity of human life. Self-sacrifice, like socialism, is riddled with inconsistencies, with weak, vaccilating fools leeching off of the honorable and hard-working. You've mixed your terms, saying first, that you would gladly die for your beliefs and your family. I doubt this. I think you would be very unhappy to die, as have most people who die. This is not to say that you won't do it nor that you should not be lauded for your sacrifice, but who gains from it and who suffers? You follow this with the statement that you would be worried if I didn't protect my family, ideals, etc. That is what I'm doing right now. Its quite a leap of logic, however, to go from saying "Protect one's family" to saying "Die for your flag on some foreign shore for the good of any number of politicians." ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Wow Def, that's quite a bit of propaganda you've got there. Riddle me this: How many dead soldiers are enjoying the fruits of their labors? What is the difference between a murderer being sentenced to death and one of your German or Soviet "patriots" being drafted into an army and sent into death? War is pain, war is all cruelty and anytime we decide on acceptable reasons to kill our fellow man, we'd better make damn certain they're good ones and we'd also better remember that life is about living, not dying. What's the point of sacrificing your life so that others may live? Who decides that and when does it end? Your jingoism rings true on a message board and in politics but what does the common soldier care? He doesn't want your glory, he's just trying to survive. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu