Hamstersss

Um CavScout, that case was in 1868. How else do you think the Supremes would have ruled in 1868? Oh, and your other argument, is no argument. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Hey Doc, let's play some CM. You're on-line a lot and its the weekend so send me a set-up. Hell, you can even pick a village or town so you'll have a church to do your preaching in. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

I forgive you, Dr. Brian. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Gauchi, Slavery did become a rallying cause of the war, after Union wore thin. As far as the right to secede, our Constitution does not prohibit it and those states would never have joined the union if they thought they couldn't leave. Lincoln's election radicalized the United States, until then there wasn't much of a federal government (No draft, no income tax, only 3 amendments to the constitution after nearly 100 years, a string of presidents that didn't rock the boat and the death of the Federalist party). As to those evil Southerners oppressing the poor black people, how does that explain the oppressed in Chicago, New York, LA, Detroit, etc.? Northerners and the Union didn't give a fig about the blacks and if you think otherwise, you're going to have an immensely difficult time backing up your argument. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Chupacabra, First off, isn't that just the silliest superstition you've ever heard. Don't you think they could've come up with a sea serpent or giant or something??? I think everything is interrelated, especially nations at war and its a great exercise to compare them. These two are superficially similar, so the fun comes when you point out how surprisingly dissimilar they are, and then turn around and point out how surprisingly similar they are. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

So let me get this straight, the main aim of the war was to end slavery, as evidenced by actions a year into the war and the Gettysburg Address (Greatest speech of all time). Also, the civil rights of the blacks would be deplorable had the south won the war. So first, why didn't the North invade before the South seceded? If these people wanted so badly to end slavery, where were the soldiers? Second, Reconstruction failed. Terribly. Reconstruction was instrumental in destroying any civil rights movements. "The blacks have nothing because nothing was given them but freedom." Who was supposed to supply them with some means to make a living? The crushed and defeated South? No, the prosperous and victorious North. Did they? No, after the war they were happy to march back North and concentrate fully on making money. If the war was about slaves, don't you think they would have come out of it better? This was a war of subjugation. Oh, and all the best generals (Excepting Sherman, of course) are Southern. Patton's grandfather served in the Army of Northern Virginia. So nyah! ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-26-2000).]

Its all ready out and its called PBEM. If you mean the TCP/IP patch, no firm date. If you mean more than 2 players, never. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Bravo Basil! Excellent post!

I assume, Kitty, that you posted this without refreshing and therefor missed the post it was in response to. In case this is not true, for further explanation, my point was that you cannot pretend like political parties in totalitarian states are a matter of personal choice or that the armed forces were not an extension of them, as that is what a totalitarian state is all about. This is in direct contrast with a republic or democracy. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

There are three levels of smoke you can have, just shift-K, IIRC, until you find what you like. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Guys, Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were totalitarian states. One party ruled them, the Nazis in one case, the Communists in another. Let's not pretend like these just happened to be the governments in power at the time. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

The uh, bonus 5mm is counteracted by the makeshift shot-trap. You get an A for effort, though! ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Hey, isn't it odd how all the venom and anger has slowly dissipated. I think we should have these rows quarterly, to keep the blood in balance. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before the North moved forces to stop the South's secession, there were more slave states IN the union then out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All of the states were in the Union before South's secession. Not a good point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're not very well informed. Initially, only seven states seceded, leaving eight slave states in the Union. It was not until the United States declared secession illegal and raised troops to defeat the Confederacy that four more states seceded. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- seperate nations with the right to secede from the Union -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once slavery is gone, the South is in the right in every other issue. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First you say that this was not a true civil war and then you talk about the South as being a single entity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To familiarize yourself with the terminology, a civil war, such as in France and Russia, occurs ACROSS geographic lines between CIVIL lines. Had all the poor people of the union rose up against the rich (Russia) or the Burgouise against the aristocracy (France) it would have been a CIVIL war. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The side that won that war is the side that created our current consumer state, with its massive corporations and its disregard for the individual -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What a pile of rubbish (IMHO of course). You truly believe that if for some godforsaken reason the Confederacy remained today that there would not being any corporations in the Southern states and that it would all be a land of yeoman farmers?!?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe if the Confederacy survived, the ideals of its foundation would still flavor its society, as has happened with the US. And this idea of the Confederacy being a backward agrarian state is hogwash. How many presidents came from Virginia? How many poets, artists and writers came from the South? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The 'side' that won the ACW was the United States of America. The so-called separate Union states did not win the war no more than the so-called separate Southern states lost the war. The country as a whole won and because of what happened in the 20th century, that was a very good thing too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Union was a unified force before the war. The states of the Confederacy are well known for their individualistic nature. Georgia tried to secede from the Confederacy near the end of the war and one of the things that doomed the Confederate States in the face of Union industrial might was their individuality. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: Formerly...and the Confederate army did not fight some campaigns as if they were a war of aggression? Even though their primary directive was not to conquer, they still used similar blitzreig(sp) strategies to go after and destroy the Army of the Potomac.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Both of the Army of Northern Virginia's advances into the North were commited with much aplomb. Any civilian supplies that they took were paid for and they never pillaged and razed like the Union armies did to Vicksburg, Fredericksburg, Chatanooga, Atlanta, Charlston, Savannah and countless points in between. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

And the points I made were mere foundation pieces, not my magnum opus, hence the simplicity. I agree absolutely with you Babra. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Just to hit on a couple points: The Civil War was not truly a civil war and more resembled a war between nations than any civil war. Contrast the Russian Revolution, the American Revolution and the French Revolution with the Civil War. You will see that the States of America were, for all intents and purposes, seperate nations with the right to secede from the Union. Before the North moved forces to stop the South's secession, there were more slave states IN the union then out. They seceded, not because of slavery, because they believed in a fundamental right to secede. It is well known that there were massive desertions and discontent in the North when the war shifted focus from Union to slavery. The Civil War was no more fought for slavery than WWII was fought for the freedom and rights of the Jews. I think slavery is wrong but you cannot argue that the North thought it was wrong and they would fight a war to end it as the facts will not support such a case. Once slavery is gone, the South is in the right in every other issue. The North was fighting for the free passage down the Mississipi, cheap cotton and the dissolution of the right to secede. The side that won that war is the side that created our current consumer state, with its massive corporations and its disregard for the individual. You could see it coming before the war, you could see it during the war, you could see it with Reconstruction and you can sure as heck see it now. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

And the SturmTiger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Exclamations may resemble those stolen from MadMatt but are actually clever, Taiwanese duplicates. I swear) Oh, and there has been talk about an expansion and more talk about saving everything for CM2, no confirmations, though. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Wow.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian: Oh, come on already. It's like you think I did that on purpose? Man, some of you crack me up. Once again, I didn't "start" anything. How did Fuzzy Logic get derailed???? Not by me. Go ahead, fire away at me, seems to be the only thing all of you are good at. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dr. Brian, I don't quite know how to respond to all of that. My statement was a joke, as evidenced by the smilie. Instead of treating it as a joke, you took it to back up your stand. As far as "Firing away at you" its just that you oversimplify things and, being a soc/anthro grognard, I try to explain why you're not quite correct. So you "normal" grognards can understand ( ), it would be the equivelent of me showing up and saying: "Dooooodz, the King Tiger is a badass tank and cannot be defeated." Though the King Tiger is a good tank, you would be right to explain that it is an oversimplified statement, right? It could be that I'm the one who is oversimplifying, of course. If this is the case, then I will happily take my thousand lashes. And by the by, it irks me that you only chose to respond to the initial statement in my post and nothing else. Perhaps you only read what people "Fire" at you and no more. This would cause you to believe that people are only "Firing away at you." ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-25-2000).]

Dr. Brian, When qouting a post with a smilie, please don't remove it, as you change my silly joke into a simpleton's statement. I think you are the match that lit this silly powder keg and have forced us to reestablish the fact that we are all adults here with complex personalities. There's a great saying that goes something like this: "Every situation was perfectly suited for the result it achieved, otherwise it would have achieved a different result." I think this is the case with this forum. I think we all worry about the nicks and whether we are acting irresponsibly in playing a game without discussing the very serious moral issues around the era. I also think it is necessary to have outbursts such as these to provide ourselves with an opportunity to discuss these issues and that's why they blossom, so we can make up for the pointed lack of discussing these issues on a regular basis. This is a CM forum. It attracts witty and intelligent people who have an affinity for World War II. WWII wasn't just about StuGs, MG-42s, Easy Eights and Tommies. It was also about some pretty significant political and social movements and its healthy to debate them from time to time. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Been done. And the ol' battle flag on the American Airborne Troops. And the white paint battle flag on the Shermans. Hell, my Amis look like they're fresh from the Army of Northern Virginia. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-25-2000).]

This is for Steve. As far as I'm cocncerned, there are some parallels and a LOT of differences. So I'll start it out with just a dichotomy: Similarities: Both nations underestimated foreign involvement. -The Confederacy thought Europe couldn't stand by while cotten supplies dried up and Germany didn't think Britain and France would go to war for Poland. Both nations had a single, massive strike against them in the civil rights area. -Slavery and the Holocaust. Both nations lost, badly, beaten by overwhelming firepower. -Northern industrial might and American industrial might are probably the closest points in these two conflicts. Differences: Political Institutions -The Confederacy was a democracy with term limits and a free press. -Germany was a totalitarian state with a massive propaganda machine. Technical Skill -The North had the most modern arms, equipment and logistics. -Germany had, arguably, the best tanks, planes and guns. The Odds -The Confederacy held off a vastly superior foe four years, with a chance to win two years into the fighting. -Germany was steadily defeated with only one serious counterattack after their stall in Russia. Well? ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Some people are NEVER happy. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu

Hey Steve, I'll be happy to debate the most important event of the 19th century some time. Its my focus more than this paltry WWII, as well. As to my leanings, let's just say that all of my American Airborne troops wear -slightly- different uniforms in my games of CM... ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu