Formerly Babra

Any chance of getting just a bit more consistency in German camo schemes? I'm well aware that camo application was more often than not ad hoc, but there ought to at least be some consistency within any given unit. As it is now, German formations in CM look like a rabble. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Every picture I can think of that shows unorganized transportation of men is taken in a non-combat situation. When the bullets started flying... do you really think someone would want to be STANDING with 2/3rds of his body exposed to enemy fire...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely not. They won't be in the halftrack at all. That's what I'm saying. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your M113 was fully enclosed, which is a significant difference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's no difference at all. As I said, we never, EVER, rode inside in a combat zone. It is SAFER up top in the open. To be inside an armoured box when the vehicle is hit or drives over a mine is to die or be horribly f&^%ed up. It makes little difference whether or not it has a roof. In the presence of the enemy, everyone is going to dismount immediately. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My readings suggest that guys sat/stood/whatever as was comfortable while moving from place to place...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...But when going into combat they assumed organized positions. Not only was this safer from a defensive standpoint, but it made for a faster and easier exit when the time for that arrived.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Disagree. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But the question you raised has been answered...OK, so in your M113, how many men MORE than the standard load did you drive around with into combat? 70% more? I doubt it. But that is what you are asking to allow us to do for the HTs. So no go there. Vehicles should carry what they realistically carried in WWII, on avarage, in combat conditions. And that is the way it should be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not asking you to change anything. I'm just rattling the cage in the interests of accuracy. Based on observations of the smaller M2A1, you have taken the position that the M3A1 did not carry a full squad and are using a circular argument to support it. Maybe you're right. I don't know. I'm saying it could if it wanted to.

Now I see what the hang-up is. It's those seats and the assumption that they are being used as such. I've just done some browsing through assorted halftrack pics. All the training pics show nicely organized men on their comfy little seats facing inboard. However, all the pics from NW Europe show the passengers standing, facing outboard, and when (rarely) seated, seated on the ammo bins, presumably with their feet on the seats. "But that's not safe from enemy fire" you say, and you're right. But in contact those men are going to dismount pronto. I rode M113s in a combat zone and never, ever did we sit inside where it was "safe". We stayed as far away from the floor (and the nearest mine) as we could, and hit the ground running when the enemy was near. But anyway. Since it's only one halftrack in five, I can live with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mace: That guy formally known as Babs. And I wish he was (formally that is)! Currently dooking it out at Villers Bocage. My Tigers have got some kills, but everytime I do so he retaliates and removes that Tiger. Wittman is still alive... Mace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hahahahaha... NOT!!!! He took one up the bum (and screamed like a girl doing it, I might add). ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Before I retire from a happy career of boat-rocking and sycophant bashing, lemme just throw a couple of numbers out there: The interior diameter of a Ram's turret ring is 60 inches (5 feet). A little geometry tells me the the area of the passenger compartment opening in the Ram Kangaroo is just under twenty square feet, about two square feet per man for a ten man section. Cozy, but well-documented. No pushing, gents, standing room only. No doubt some fond attachments were made. By comparison, the passenger compartment of the M3A1 has a length just under ten feet, and a width close to seven feet. Let's err on the side of caution call it about 60 square feet. Let's subtract about ten square feet for ma deuce in her holy pulpit, which impinges only slightly on the passenger compartment. The .30s are pintle mounted on the hull sides and don't meaningfully subtract from the total, but let's hack off another ten square feet for them anyway. We've still got about forty square feet left, double that of the Ram Roo, which is known certainly to have carried a ten man section (some sources say eleven) including a bloody Bren gun. So could a dozen men fit? I'd say certainly: Four on a side and four on the floor -- it could be done. If the M3A1's intended use was a command vehicle, that's one thing, but it seems like its capabilities are being artificially restricted to force us to use it that way.

Just found the following interesting tidbit on both the command and artillery spotting capabilities of the allied O/P tanks: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The Ram also provided the basic chassis for numerous other vehicles. One of these was the Command or Observation Post tank. Eighty-four of these were produced at Montreal during 1943 and additional vehicles were converted from Ram IIs in the United Kingdom. During conversion, the 6 pounder and its coaxial machine gun were elimintated and replaced with a dummy gun. The turret basket and hydraulic traversing gear were removed and the manual rotation was limited to 90 degrees. This provided sufficient space for a six man crew with the necessary seats and a map table. Two radio sets were installed, one in the turret bustle and one in the left sponson. Additional line communication equipment was fitted and a forward observation post was located at the front of the turret with a sliding door view port just below the dummy 6 pounder gun. Artillery fire control equipment was carried and the rotating turret hatch was calibrated so that the hatch periscope could be used as a direction finder. Armament was limited to the .30 caliber bow machine gun and the .30 caliber anti-aircraft gun fitted to the turret hatch. Unlike the Ram II on which it was based, the Command/Observation Post tank was widely used by the Canadian Armoured divisions during operations in Northwest Europe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From Hunnicutt's Sherman, page 114.

I realize the pic is an incomplete vehicle. It is indeed a MG version (note the three pintle mounts on the rear compartment wall) and probably would carry NO passengers, being a support halftrack. I put it up for passenger-space comparison purposes with Ram Roo above only. The only thing missing of consequence is the bulkhead wall between the passenger and driving compartments. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I just checked out real M2A1 (same as the M3A1 and M5A1 for this discussion)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why is it the same for this discussion? The M2 halftrack series is a shorter vehicle than the M3 series. It has, as you point out, six seats (seven actually) in the rear compartment, while the M3 sports ten. The M2 series also has very large stowage compartments which separate the driving and passenger compartments -- the M3 does not have these and is consequently much roomier. (Check out Zaloga's M3 Infantry Half-Track 1940-73 for good comparative pics). If the MG operators on the M3A1 are assumed to be inherent vehicle crew rather than passengers, then I will (happily) concede that a dozen men could not share the same space with them, but I'm not so certain this was the case. Comfort is not on the table here. We're not talking about ergonomically designed 21st century toys. The M2/M3 halftracks were stop-gap constructions, built mostly with available civilian components to keep costs down and deliveries high. The question isn't "would twelve men be happy in there"; the question is, "Would twelve men fit?"

I'm sure they're relying on some sort of documentary evidence for this decision, so I'm not gonna bitch about it. But it does seem strange. The M3A1 compartment is a hell of a lot roomier than the Ram Roo, and the Roo is known for certain to have carried a complement of ten. [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 11-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: There is not room for 12 guys in there with that extra MG mount and ammo storage. Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would disagree with that. The ammo would be stored on the floor between the seats and would not be a hindrance. The .50 pulpit is over the cab, and again would not be a hindrance. I have a not-very-clear photo of an M3A1 with .50 cal, .30 cal, and water-cooled .30 cal all on the same vehicle. There are nine passengers visible. I'll keep my eye out for a better pic. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by a brain-dead Wanks_IK: Is there room for an American on the board? I hope so.... *pulls the carrier of beer off the back of his Pershing and drags it inside* <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is no room here, or anywhere else for that matter, for Snot-nosed, Egotistical, Retard Teens (hereinafter referred to as Snerts™). Now go help your mommy wash the jizz stains out of your linen, snert™. You are unworthy. Aspirations to coveted Cesspudlian status are beyond you. Oh, and thanks so much for the American beer (stolen from daddy's fridge while he was out spending your tuition on porn, no doubt) -- being more vile than urine, we can fling it back at you.

I suppose the short answer is time. There's more to it than wheeling a 75mm PaK through the pantry door. A firing position needs to be built. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dienekes: One unforeseen expense (this only applies if your married) if you play too much CM your wife might leave you which will end up costing you half of everything you own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Roger that. Women are like tornadoes: When they come they're wet and wild, but when they leave they take the house and car... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

If you are interested in ww2 games, wargames with a high level of realism, and good cesspool fun, CM is your puppy. The investment is TINY compared to my old boardgames. If you just want a fun computer game to burn some time off your life, anything will do. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Headin' westward! And bringin' along the sheep Oh they're loads of fun when the day is done And it's time to go to sleep Next best thing to a weddin' ring When it's time to go to sleep... Bloody Dingos ate my pool. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Dude, still sweet. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

errr... okay. What I was TRYING to say is that your mention of a Reichstag gave to me the idea of a gallery of one-of-a-kind building tiles to be used in user-made scenarios, and I thought that was a good thing. Clearly I was mistaken about your brilliance. Please resume being a snert. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates: I hope that the Reichstag is not some super-pretty modification of CM 1's church.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My child, you are brilliant! Add this to my wishlist: One-of-a-kind buildings. Reichstag, Victory monument, Univermag, Colloseum, Eiffel Tower... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Old Dog: Actually Formerly Bab, I work for the NSA, but if I told you why we need the information we're collecting, I'd have to kill you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hehehe... Sadly, no one loves me enough to put a bullet in my brain... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

What I know about these things amounts to, well, nothing. I expect that sort of alert almost everywhere -- but not here, so it took me by surprise.

Maybe it's the cynic in me. My reading of the problem is this: "I'm inexperienced with rockets, didn't use them right, and I'd like them to be idiot-proof." Don't feel bad, most people screw them up, me included. Just takes practice. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Hehehe... AOL Instant Massacre.... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

I am curious (and a little concerned) why the following message pops up when entering this particular thread. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> www.olddogscmcentral.homestead.com, a different website than you are currently visiting, would like to read a small file (called a cookie) on your computer. Information available to the website, such as identity or preferences, may be stored in the cookie...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is the only thread I have encountered this in. What information are you after, Old Dog, and why not just ask? ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Dude, sweet ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Just say the word, gaffer me lad. I can squeeze into the glove box if necessary YET ANOTHER EDIT: Just learned the other day that Peter Worthington of Sun fame is the son of J.M. Worthington. Don't know why that surprised me, but it did. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 11-25-2000).]

Allies did indeed use command tanks, aka O/P Tanks. Of especial interest to Canucks is the Ram OP. Yes, our vaunted homebrew did indeed see combat action in Europe, albeit without its main gun. EDIT: In fact, those ammo-less Sherman IIIs depicted in the VB scenario are meant to represent OP Tanks. EDIT EDIT: Deleting reduntant use of "in fact" in same sentence because it makes me look as stupid as I am. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 11-25-2000).]