Formerly Babra

And the ever popular "Romeo Foxtrot" (Rat F**k) -- which goes on a bit too much 'round here if ya ask me...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...he shot in the same area that the unit Kelly belonged to (the 35th Infantry Division) fought in...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> KH was shot in Yugoslavia, IIRC.

The Cannon Company of the 16th Infantry (in T19s) was awarded a Presidential Unit Citation for a defensive action against elements of the HG Pz Div near Gela, Sicily, in '43. They were credited with the destruction of six German tanks and halting the attack. EDIT: My source says they were not intended for anti-tank work, however, so I doubt HEAT was in the load-out. [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 12-03-2000).]

I'll have the coroner post you one of my lungs when I'm gone. Should be enough in there for a panzer division.... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herr Oberst: Foul-handed Barbarella, for that little plagiaristic act, you shall have to pay. I shall devise a painful and punishing PBEM and send it your way. Poaching sigs. Indeed... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So it is written, so let it be done. Could ya wait about a week though? Bit overtaxed here at the moment. There's a good lad. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally bluffed by Mark IV: Surrender NOW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From Hell's heart I stab at thee...

They're a LOT less lethal than they used to be. I used to love my "3 inch anti-Puma mortars", but those days are gone...

Centaur was an interim vehicle until the engines for the Cromwell could be mass produced. The Liberty engines for the Centaur tended to shake apart at high revs, so they were relegated to training duties. Only a few were present in Normandy. Other than that, it's pretty much the same beast.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian: So, it kind of makes you wonder then, why on earth did they make halftracks? You may as well go in a soft-skinned vehicle...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Mobility. Halftracks can go where trucks can't.

shhhhh.....

I took the reference to "weapons carriers" to refer to the 75mm variants and such things.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Sadly, Mongols vs. Gerbils is a fairly accurate characterization of this little fracas, making your massive losses all the more inexcusable...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Great Babra-Khan is angered. Lo, and the heavens opened and the rain of steel descended. Yea, and there was confusion in the ranks of the Gerbilstruppen, and they were scattered like chaff before the mighty wind. "Save us!" they wept, and fled the barrage laid down by three 81mm FOs. "God mitt uns!" they wailed, as they fled straight into the kill zone of the 155mm and 105mm VT. And in sixty seconds there was nothing left of the German defence but flaming trees and abandoned machine guns... So it is written, so it was done.

Well, it's pretty much undisputed how many seats they had. BTS's position seems to be based on usage (command vehicle), and the assertion that a full squad just wouldn't fit due to the extra equipment and ammo on the M3A1. As you know, I disagree with the second assertion. Regarding usage, the armor mag article we previously cited has raised doubts in my mind. It quite clearly states that armored infantry squads were different than foot squads in that one squad member was detailed as the driver. It also lists a TO&E for armored infantry platoons having a machine gun squad with one .50 cal and two Browning .30 cals. That's exactly the armament of the M3A1 (MMG), which coincidentally (?) was alloted at one per platoon. I think these are some clues that perhaps these vehicles do not have any inherent crews at all and are merely platforms for the different squads which use them. More investigation is definitely needed here, but primary sources are required. I think I've exhausted the available net resources.

From the King of Kings of the East and West, the Great Babra-Khan. To Mark IV the Gerbil, who fled to escape our garlic-breath. You should think of what happened to other CM grogs... and submit to us. You have heard how we have conquered a vast empire and have purified the earth of the Waxx's and Bates' that tainted it. We have conquered foolish Mace, massacring all the Tiger Crews. You cannot escape from the terror of our Poilus. Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our Greyhounds are swift, our 76mms tungsten-cored, our Tanks prettily adorned with patriotic slogans, our hearts as hard as Waxx_IK in a boy's gym, our soldiers as numerous as Florida recounts. Minefields will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations. Only those who send a cease-fire request will be safe. Hasten your reply before the 155mm VT is called in ... Resist and you will suffer the most terrible catastrophes. We will shatter your foxholes and reveal the weakness of your God and then we will kill your children and your old men together. At present you are the only enemy against whom we have not exacted our full revenge... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

The biggest discrepancy so far, as pointed out by someone else, is that an M3 can carry twelve men (and their gear), but not three two-man zook teams. It's not critical, but it's something I'd like to see refined at some point, be it a patch or CM2. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Steve (BTS). Clicking on the link won't work, but you can copy it right to your browser. It's an article from Armor mag about the development of US Tank/Infantry cooperation in WW2. Only a very small section is relevant to this discussion, but it's a good read anyway. EDIT: The relevance is the reference to squad members being actual crew members of the halftrack. If this is extrapolated, the M3(MMG) with its crew is actually the suppport squad for a platoon. Read the article and draw your own conclusions. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 12-01-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Don't tell me – he was run over by an M5A1 halftrack, which, being prior to v1.1, was overcrowded with a full squad, when everyone knows that the ring mount for the .50 cal MG took up the space for two seats (or maybe Babra was sitting on the storage bins), and was thus unsafe. Moral of the story: don't leave the house without checking up on your TO&E's. David Tact and sensitivity never won any wars™<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In the immortal words of Madmatt: Bite me... (best I can do for now -- i'm quite drunk). ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Lebanon. You may find this article instructive or helpful. http://147.238.100.101/dtdd/armormag/so99/5mudd99.pdf Note how the American armored infantry squad details one man as the driver for the squad's M3 and he "usually remains with the vehicle". Maybe American squads should be eleven men, eh?

Nam? Who mentioned Nam? Not I... Trucks, you say. That's just what they are. Wrap 'em in steel if ya want (6mm? Gee thanks - I'll be gettin' my soft ass the hell out now), mount a machine gun or three, put tracks on the back, call 'em an "armoured personnel carrier". It's still just a truck.

Beltfed (cool nick btw ) Thanks. That fits perfectly with what I was researching. Appreciate the help. ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

seems like a good place to ask this: Could one of you enlighten me as to the difference between an 11B10 and 11B20? I need to know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox: If the capacity of the only halftrack type available to the British is to be reduced then properly the vehicle availability needs to be changed to reflect the fact that the M5 capable of carrying a squad were used by these units. Especially since these vehicles were principally manufactured for lend-lease anyway. Otherwise scenarios like Villers-Bocage would be impossible to attempt to recreate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, it seems the current "cargo capacity" of "squad"/"something less than a squad which always equals half a squad" doesn't seem to be cutting it. Maybe, carrying capacities of vehicles can eventually be represented in single-man increments. Then three bazooka teams can actually fit into an M3.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally whined by Mace: Thus due to cirsumstances beyond my control, I am unable to observe the firey death that you have dealt me until I get home...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Fiery? Sadly, no. The bitches still won't burn. On the bright side, that annoying little crack shot sniper who plugged two of my TCs has finally been run to earth. After about a hundred rounds of 37mm reduced his hiding place to kindling, he made a dash across the street. Almost made it too, the little prick. Now his bullet-riddled corpse lies right where it belongs, in the gutter. I'm going to pretend it's Waxx and do donuts on it with a Stuart for the next fifteen minutes... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...

Good pics, thanks. Okay, looking at it from another angle: Advantages to the change: Players will be discouraged from exclusively purchasing M3A1s and neglecting the more common M3, which would otherwise lead to ahistorical OOBs. Disadvantages: 6 men gotta hitch a ride somewhere else. I can live with that. I still don't agree with the basic premise that there isn't room, or the reasoning, but the result seems reasonable enough. I'll go raise trouble somewhere else now ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... [This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 11-30-2000).]

Mace. Quit not talking to people and send me a response to the death of Wittman. Your last pitiful Tiger has a Cromwell in front and a firefly behind, range about five metres. END IT NOW!!! As Mark Foreskin astutely pointed out, I am a "violent little man". ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue...