Juardis

Forgetting for the moment that the Hunt command did not work properly, what is the SOP in Tac OPs. I've never played that game. As for spotting an enemy infantry unit in its rear while buttoned...that is my biggest gripe. My most recent whine was JadgPanzers spotting and targetting my AT teams to its rear while buttoned. AT teams are ALWAYS the first infantry unit targetted by the TAC AI. Which begs the question, if that sharpshooter had been a piat team, would you have considered that a threat worth rotating your turret towards? You didn't say how far away it was. If you had unbuttoned your Tiger before continuing the hunt command on the next turn, he could have perhaps used the flex MG and not had to rotate his turret to fire. Just playing Devil's advocate. Hell, I empathize with you, but I still think the problem is with the hunt command.

Then I would say the problem is that your Tiger did not stop and return fire at the Churchill. That is what it is supposed to do. The fact that it kept moving was the cause of your untimely death. So I wouldn't blame the AI for rotating its hull at a target in its flank, I'd blame the coding that kept your tank moving while hunting. Are you playing 1.1 or 1.05? I'm currently in a 1.1 PBEM scenario and I have 3 stugs hunting forward. All 3 are stopped at the moment shooting at an AT gun in the distance. The hunt command is still active, the waypoints are still plotted, yet the stugs are stopped and returning fire. Same with all other vehicles that I have hunting. The only time I have seen that it does not stop is when it is targeting infantry with it's machine guns.

Thanks guys.

I'm at work right now and am looking at the CM unit database by Guachi. He does not have a listing for a PzIV/70 but he does have one for a JadgPanzer IV/70(V). So what you're saying is that the the PzIV/70 in CM is what the database calls the JadgPanzer IV/70(V)? That makes sense and would clear up all my confusion.

Well, it may not help your current situation any, but you really ought to get more memory, especially now when the prices are relatively low. Sometimes you have to reinstall DirectX after you install new vid card drivers, but you said you installed DirectX 8.0, presumably after you had your vid drivers installed. Are the banshee drivers DX8.0 compatable? ------------------ Jeff Abbott

It has been my experience that the JadgPanther is inferior to the JadgPanzer. The JadgPanther seems to die way too easily (which you proved again). The JadgPanzer seems much harder to kill. Not sure if it's because of the angles or what.

These are two distinct tanks in CM, but they look alike. IIRC, in CM the Pz IV/70 has more armor and higher penetration. But what I want to know is why make two tank hunters so similar yet call them something different? Is one built on one chassis and the other on a different chassis? I've done some research but apparently people get these two confused, which in turn gets me confused. They look identical, they performed the same function, yet the Pz IV/70 appears to be much better than the JPz IV/70 (at least in CM it does) ------------------ Jeff Abbott

I guess that means they've lived longer and hence are elite?

Steve, when you implement the optional rarity price system in CM2, will this new system reflect the fact that an Elite Volksturm unit is an oxymoron? Seriously, the price for such a unit ought to be infinitely high since, in reality, elites never existed. ------------------ Jeff Abbott

Thought you were going to cause a premature thread death, eh Steve? From that thread: "Assault Move - Slow speed, good firepower, good cover, poor concealment. Will not stop if fired upon." No, I don't believe that is what we're talking about here in this thread. What we're talking about would be a 6th movement order. That is, move fast until within close assault range then stay within close assault range once there. If the target happens to move before you get there, adjust your route to get you close. Once there, use grenades, demo charges, rifle grenades, fausts, gammon bombs, sticks, rocks, knives, whatever it takes. That is the sole purpose of assaulting an AFV or anything else, get close and stay close. Right now there is no recourse if the AFV moves before you get there.

Andreas, if you drop smoke to help get your one squad up close and personal with an AFV, then it can and does work. You typically get one chance as it is now because once at the spot where you're going, your squad stops and throws a grenade or demo charge or uses it's rifle grenade. After that, the TAC AI is reversing the tank. It's particularly frustrating when trying to assault a hetzer or Jadgpanzer IV. It should be possible with a high degree of success, especially when they're buttoned and there is no infantry support for them. It's not suicide. You obviously would not give the command if it was never going to work, but it can work if done properly. All we're asking for (I'm asking for) is a way to overcome the TAC AI reversing tanks out of harms way. And if you want to chase the tank back to Berlin, what's wrong with that? If you can do it successfully, go ahead and do it. I say it's the enemies fault for not having infantry support for their tanks.

good thread. thanks

That's interesting. I'm beginning to believe that there are special spotting/targetting rules just for AT teams . Maybe in 1.1 BTS made area target lock break easier? Basically, I'm looking for a way to employ real world suppression tactics in support of an assault or attack. Area targetting doesn't (or shall I say didn't use to) work for that purpose.

Yes, that's my point. You can see the box even when the highlighted unit is out of LOS. But the box gets bigger when it comes into LOS. I'm thinking that the transition from the small box (out of LOS) to the bigger box (in LOS) is the hull down position. I will know soon enough after my opponent returns the movie. Yes, the box expands when a unit is firing, which of course only happens during the movie phase, not the order phase. But that is yet another indication that the box conveys information beyond just keeping the location of the highlighted unit.

Andreas, you are very likely correct in that something previously went bad. But tell me when anything goes right on a battlefield. You're saying because something went bad before (either stupidity or bad luck) that I have no recourse to redress the wrong? That makes absolutely no sense to me. If I need that AFV taken out to accomplish my objectives, by God I'm going to give the order to take it out whether I screwed up earlier or not.

OK, I did a test last night. Flat map, 800m across. 4 copses of woods set at each corner. The americans had 1 platoon in each copse + 1 zook, 1 sharshooter, 1 MG team and 1 81mm mortar team. The Germans had 2 hetzers, 2 Jadgpanzer IVs, and a Pz IV/70. I buttoned the tanks and rotated them 90 degrees. I ran the test 5 times. 1st test: The americans were spotted about 400m away but no tanks rotated or turned. The germans ID'd them as "infantry?". 200m away, at an angle of about 120 degrees (i.e., back and to the right of the tanks), one of the JPz draws a bead straight to my zook. The germans ID'd it as "infantry?". 150m away the ID turned from "infantry?" to "AT team?" My 2 problems were illustrated right here on the first test. That is the JPz was buttoned and spotted a unit running when it was behind him and then when he did spot them he targetted the AT team first not really knowing that it was an AT team. 2-5 tests: More of the same. Spotting was sporadic. Sometimes the americans were spotted, sometimes they weren't. 2 american groups times 5 tests = 10 chances to spot running infantry. Out of those 10 chances, a group was spotted 6 times. In all cases, when a bead was drawn to a unit (happened 5 times), it was to the AT team. In all cases, the AT team was initially ID'd by the Germans as "infantry?" In all 5 cases that the AT team was targetted, the targetting occurred at 200m, plus or minus 10m. It's like a switch goes on that warns a tank that there is a AT team within range. One other thing. Only the JPz IVs spotted anything. The hetzers were deaf, dumb, and blind the whole time. The JPz IVs though were almost clairvoyant. So I ask one more time. Do JPz IVs have vision slits in the side and rear? Regardless, either the TAC AI is cheating or the graphics are not being updated as fast as the TAC AI is reacting. For Napoleon, I did not test piats, sorry.

[sorry, meant to put a question mark in the topic] Or I should ask is it ineffective unless it's being done by arty? Does anyone use area fire with tanks or MGs? I do but only if I know that no other units will appear in LOS since they are loathe to break lock. What I'm referring to though is when you want to cross an open space and you know or suspect the enemy is in some trees or a house. If you target the area I don't see where the units in that area are suppressed. Furthermore, when they then expose themselves to fire at your units, your area fire is not adjusted to direct fire. Since suppression was the goal of area fire, shouldn't the target be adjusted? As it is now, I usually let the enemy fire first and expose himself and hope that my covering force will react to that. Has anyone seen area fire changed to direct fire when the enemy appears in that area? ------------------ Jeff Abbott [This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 01-24-2001).]

A close assault command is needed. The only good argument against putting one is is the difficulty in coding. To the realism camp. As it is now, if you want to close assault anything you have to run up to it then do something. Whether the "it" is a tank in the open field or a MG nest in some woods, the point is you have to get there fast and do something fast lest ye be killed. It is much more unrealistic with the way it is coded now to issue the run command if they're going to stop in empty space. With a close assault command, you follow you're target, which is much more realistic. Furthermore, you cannot tell me that issuing an assault command is not realistic. How were pill boxes taken out? With assualts. How were MG nests taken out? With assualts. How were buildings taken? With assaults. The current list of commands works fine if the enemy cooperates and stays put. If all you want is to take terrain, the current list of commands works well. But if you want to eliminate the enemy, and they don't stay still while you run up to them, then you need an order that will tell your assaulters to continue until they're dead (or you cancel the order). I agree that the current list of commands works well 75% of the time, it's the other 25% of the time that needs help. As for waiting until the end of turn before issuing the command, that too is not ideal. Yes, it will give you time to retract your orders if you find out they were bad. But if you find out they were good then it gives the enemy time to counteract your orders. To close assault, you first have to get where your going then you have to wait while the assault is being executed. If you get there at the end of the turn but you're waiting for the assault to take place between 60 sec turns, you have just given the enemy an opportunity to react where he otherwise might not have. ------------------ Jeff Abbott

LOL. I finished off one of my squads when a zook team took out a Lynx that that squad was close assaulting. It was a catastrophic kill. The explosion killed my two remaining squad members. ------------------ Jeff Abbott

As per a previous thread, I'm practicing my armor tactics so I don't have to whine about my AT teams getting spotted too easily . Specifically, I'm trying to figure out how to get hull down without coming up short or overexpose myself. That has been one of the main reasons my tanks die fast and dramatically. So I'm playing an all armor game. I'm down in the grass with the 1 view and I have an enemy tank highlighted. There is a yellow box around the tank which tells me where it is as I'm walking the map looking for good routes. I noticed that the box is small when it is out of LOS, but that it gets bigger once in LOS. So I'm guessing that transition is the hull down point. Is that right? Am I seeing things? Strike that, I know the box is getting bigger, so let me rephrase that. Am I reading too much into this? ------------------ Jeff Abbott

OK, let me give a specific example in current battle. Light fog, visibility about 650m. He has hetzers and Jpz IVs. I have infantry. He has some supporting infantry, but not enough to stop me. He has more than enough armor to stop me. So to win, I have to take out his armor. My tanks are dead, my arty is running low. I have zooks and infantry. Now then, at first I advance slowly and steathily until someone is spotted and fired upon. OK, he knows I'm near. His tanks are in great overwatch position and I have to cross open space between tree copses to get to him. So I first button up his Hetzers and JPz with mortar and arty, then I use smoke. Since I have Glider squads with inherent AT capability, I rush a whole platoon of them with the zook to a tree copse. Now, I haven't rushed a tank yet, I'm just rushing from one copse of trees to another, under smoke, in foggy conditions, 400m away from any enemy unit, with buttoned up Hetzers and JPz. Yet, here's the beef, the tanks draw a bead to my zook and shoot at it! A few moves later those same Hetzers and JPz IVs are engaged in something else and I have snuck within 300m of them. Yet I have to get closer. His infantry in this area is gone thanks to the platoon I brought with me, but there are some MG nests further back behind the tanks. There is more cover about 150m to the flank of the tanks. Now remember, they're buttoned. Drop smoke, run entire platoon (with zook) to the cover 150m from the flank. What do they do? They rotate and fire at my damn zook through some of the smoke!!!! Then they reverse to get out of range and continue firing at my damn zook in between smoke clouds!!! This single battle highlights my frustration. AT teams are spotted too easily. Maybe it's different with piats, maybe not, I don't know. Now then, am I doing something wrong with zooks? I don't think so. It just seems to me that the TAC AI knows something that my opponent doesn't. If this is how it's going to be, then fine, I need to really work on using armor better. But I just can't believe that buttoned up Hetzers and JadgPanzers can spot anything in their flanks, let alone picking an AT team out of a crowd and shooting at it. No more whines left. Thanks for letting me vent.

Yes, but if you see that honking piece of stovepipe then it is no longer identified as infantry? or crew?, but as an AT team. If positively ID'd, yeah, blast the crap out of them. My issue is that when running in a platoon, AT teams are preferrentially targetted even when they are ID'd as crew? or infantry? (I tested this with a hot seat game). My issue is that they are spotted by buttoned tanks too easily (IMHO). I'm curious. Do you never hunt tanks with your AT teams? Am I the only one that does so? I suck at using armor so consequently, my armor dies first and fast. My only real options thereafter are my AT teams.

Hey, thanks. I always wondered how to do that. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015401.html [This message has been edited by Juardis (edited 01-23-2001).]

Did BTS make this change in 1.1? I don't recall that being one of the fixes. Maybe you meant it will be looked at for CM2?