Andreas

Time to BUMP this baby, seeing some of the morosity posted in John's Kursk thread...

Time to BUMP this baby, seeing some of the morosity posted in John's Kursk thread...

A lot of the Soviet intel on the battle came from other sources than Ultra. Zhukov in his memoirs mentions: 1) POWs 2) Deserters 3) Downed pilots 4) artillery reconnaissance (flash and sound) 5) Local reconnaissance by the frontline units He also mentions partisan activity, and it is likely that these would inform the Soviet command of troop movements. Ultra would have provided the general idea, but local measures were necessary to identify specific units etc. Quite interesting is that in May they knew that an attack was not forthcoming because no heavy artillery units had been identified. Ultra would have told them the same I guess, but the local corroboration would have strengthened the case. Zhukov also says that they actually failed to identify the southern sector as the main sector of the attack - which is why the Germans broke in so deeply there, compared to the north, where the Red Army expected the main thrust. As to the idea that the Germans could just have attacked anywhere else while the Red Army sits at Kursk and waits for them to attack there - please... Unless the Germanuberweapon of 1943 was a magic Army Group beam system there was no way they could have just gone and switch the attack from Kursk to, say, Velikije Luki to surprise the Soviets without the Soviets noticing. One should also remember that the Soviet reserves were sufficient to rebuild its 'shattered' defensive formations near Kursk to a degree that allowed a rapid counter attack within four weeks (including rebuilding the whole of the almost destroyed 5th GTA and the severely hit 1st TA.

Please do some reading, or refrain from posting, since you are quite clueless. There are a number of booklists around on the board that you can access.

Outside of Disneyland Minsk that is unlikely to happen though, since there was no Hummel in the early war. Looking at pictures of mid-late war Hummels though, they have these nice metal baskets over the opening, to keep them from falling out during a bumpy ride. Alles Gute kommt von oben, evidently.

Nope, von Paulus, later of Stalingrad fame.

I think the reason this seems not to be in CM is that it is a rule of thumb. CM uses a very complex set of penetration equations, and variations in armour quality (fixed), weak points, etc.pp. All in a 3D environment, i.e. angle of incoming round to plate matters (which it does not under this rule of thumb). As a rule of thumb, I am sure it works in CMBO. 75mm Sherman does not penetrate 82mm side armour of Tiger? Works. 88mm round penetrates 45mm T34 armour? Works.

You spelled 'institutionalised' wrong.

Should that not be 'Not even the mighty BT-7 can stand its furious onslaught!'?

Play green troops.

More importantly the next two CMs will not have Canadians in them, and that will annoy the twin-city loony.

I thought it was the 'Lassie come home' forum. When I realised it was the 'Flipper the friendly Dolphin' forum I decided to stay, and buy the game, since any company supporting the cause of whaling deserves my wholehearted support.

Wankers. With apologies to The King.

The gun may have been, but the ammo?

Bakker, the TO&E you give there is of course the mid-war TO&E after the introduction of armoured SP artillery. In 1941 (presumably 1942 also), batteries were towed by Motorzug (motorised) in the armoured and motorised divisions, and had four guns each. E.g. 1. PD, June 1941 I. Abt 3 x 4 10,5cm lFH18 II. Abt 3 x 4 10,5cm lFH18 III. Abt 2 x 4 15cm sFH18 1 x 4 10cm K18 This was standard, although there seems to be some debate about how many 10cm K18 were actually present. Sources on this: v. Senger und Etterlin: 'Die deutschen Geschütze 1939-1945' W.Fleischer & R.Eiermann: 'Die motorisierte und Panzerartillerie des deutschen Heeres 1935-1945' Engelmann 'German artillery' OOB information of deployed (as opposed to paper) strength in: Glantz 'The initial period of war' Hoffmann 'Die Magdeburger Division'

Bummer. Michael</font>

Long live Google (i.e. no idea how correct this is): The following should give a good impression fo the role of an Arko, it did for me. The 'smoke mortar battalion' is probably a nebelwerfer unit, and the special observation battalion must be a Beobachtungsabteilung. [ August 09, 2002, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

There are a few examples I can think of. von Fretter-Pico became at least an Army commander, and another guy (name escapes me) was tasked with defending various fortified cities, until he finally did not make it out of one.

This statement, like so much else in the German Army Handbook, is just plain wrong. I really think of the German Army Handbook as an interesting piece on what the Allies thought the Germans were doing/having, but not as something that states what they did, or that anyone should rely on anywhere unless it is corroborated by another source. The 10cm K18 fulfilled a doctrinally important role in the heavy detachements of the motorised and armoured divisions, due to its longer range. It was not a good gun (see. v. Senger und Etterlin 'The German Guns') because it did not deliver enough weight of fire, and was too heavy to be used by horse-drawn detachments. It was needed because it had the range to reach out slightly beyond 19km, thus enabling armoured spearheads to receive artillery support when they had outranged their howitzers. For this reason (range), it was also used by the Navy. There were independent detachments around that were army-level assets (one or two in AG NOrth at the start of Barbarossa for example), and that would support the breakthrough on the main axis, presumably delivering CB and interdiction fire support along that axis. Again something you need range for, especially if those pesky Soviet heavy howitzers outrange yours by a considerable margin. There was a fairly constant number of about 700 10cm K18 in action throughout the war. The Germans could not holler 'Victor Target' - well they could, but nothing on the scale of a Victor would happen... The mobility, firing arc restrictions, range limitations and supply problems would not have made that a sensible use. In critical sectors (e.g. Zhitomir 1944, Yelnia 1941) Arko (Artillerie Kommando) units were stationed. I understand that these were administrative units, attached to a Corps HQ, and equipped with signals and FOO detachments whose purpose it was to combine the artillery of the Corps. At that level, Uncle tragets were possible, but I doubt there were many of these Arkos. When the Germans put their mind to it, they could reduce Soviet artillery to nothing (e.g. Leningrad prior to the attempted offensive to take the city in 1942). Most of the time they did/could not to that degree, and they had to live with having less artillery support than their opponents. From the time when things started to go really pear-shaped in the east, artillery had to provide men for so-called Alarmeinheiten (emergency response units), to contain Soviet break-ins or ocunter-attack on the small unit level. This led to high losses of experienced cader, and to a diminishing of the effectiveness of the guns, as far as I understand it. An interesting comment by a German vet was that he felt that Anglo-American CB in Normandy was much less efficient than theirs. Like all vet comments, this has to be taken with a grain of salt though. I will dig out some info on artillery practice when I am back in London next week and post it here.

I'm a Lincolnshire Yellowbelly!</font>

Hey Matt, whose grass are you using? Also, any proof that Matildas and Stuarts ever served in the same unit? If not, fix or somefink!

I always thought Yorkshiremen call a spade a spoon. Oh well...

Joe, why would I give a flying monkey's what you think? I am trying hard to think when was the last time I took someone who dressed up as Patton seriously. Well, I can't remember, and I went back to 1968. So why don't you just hold on to your delusions of grandeur, and sod off a lot. Remember, the baby does not grow weight because it is made from plastic. Have a rotten day.

Let's see... German for 'proper fishing method'?</font>