Kwazydog

Hi Guys, What we need to check out this behaviour are some in game movies or saves. If you have something that looks to be a possible bug, like the guys sneaking right throught he town (they were paniced or broken out of interest?) Send them through and we will have a look Dan

Pamak, if you do a Search on 'Borg Spotting' or 'Absolute Spotting' using the search button above you should find a lot of information about this and about how we may improve this in the future. As for ballistics (presuming you are meaning armour penetration modelling, etc) I can assure you that CM has incredable detail in there area, more so than any game out there that I know of. We use actual mathamatical calculations for every single shot, not penetration tables like most games use. These calculations take into account dozens of factors of each shot and much research has been done to make sure that they are accurate as possible. If you seach for some of the posts by 'Rexford', who is a member on the beta team and actually has a book out on the matter, you should see some of the details we take into consideration in CM's ballistics Dan

Heya Hortlund Yup, they are extremely thick, as least the 25mm that is the general upper armour level I would guess actually! Something to consider though...you wouldnt necessaryly have to be in a verticle dive, but instead you could be attacking from the side of the Tiger. If you look at the front air cover in the last shot above you should be able to see what I mean. Again, youd have to be lucky but considering the amount of lead a plane can throw at a tank there is some suprisingly big hole for them to enter through there It makes me wonder why they didnt design it like the rear one as it seems to offer better protection. Maybe they needed more air flow... Dan

Redwolf makes a good point there too...absolute spotting is something that has been in all versions of CM thus far. Blah, try doing some searches on 'absolute spotting' or 'borg spotting' and look for some of the responses from Steve (from battlefront). He goes into the issue, why it is something that difficult to work around and give some clues into how we may tackle the issue in the future Dan [ November 30, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Hehe, good point...this might explain quite a few of your concerns youve posted Blah Crack and elite troops represent the best of the best and should rarely be seen on the battlefield. If you are looking for a more challanging battle without playing against sharp shooting tank gunners, try increasing the play balance in favour of the enemy...this should give them more equipment but not raise their experience levels. Dan [ November 29, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Looking as the Bovington tank yeah, they do seem to go straight through and I think further investigation would confirm this. To be honest though it wouldnt surpised me at all if it was designed this way as the odds of something getting in there is very small, particually considering the time frame when the Tiger was developed. As for tanks not breaking down stright away I agree, it probably shouldnt depending on the type of damage cause, but remember immobilisations are currently somewhat of an abstraction in CM and can represent numerous faults. Guys, this is something that has never been seen before, or at least I have never seen it and cant recall it seeing mentioned on the forum. Thus it is obvoiusly a very rare event, as it should be. Its really not something worth a hell of a lot of detailed investigation though as aircraft are rare to start with on the CM battlefield Dan

Hehe, Ill mention it to Matt guys

Heya Hortlund Firstly, lets remember we are talking about a very rare and lucky hit here, one which I have never seen in game but do not believe to have been an impossibility in reality. Lets remember that an immobilisation hit in CM is somewhat of an abstraction and could represent anything from a busted radiator or oil line to a broken link on a track. With that in mind, check out some of the photos below that Ive found whilst searching the net for further info... http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/6067-C-4_sm.jpg http://tiger1.info/vim/p7240018.jpg Here are a couple of photos of the vents allowed for engine cooling on the Tiger (the second seems to have had the rear cover replaced incorrectly? Odd). Note that size of the gaps in the cover! To be honest I was even surprised to see how wide they were. I see no reason a .50cal round or fragments there of couldnt find their way through those to something more vital below. http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/4194_f_6_sm.jpg This photo shows the rear of a Tiger, and the holes where the exhausts leave the engine and the starting crack passes inwards. I imagine the starting crack cover would be rather thick, but there is no getting around the need for exhaust to leave the vehicle. I think this would be a reasonable example of a weak point And to finish up, here is an interesting reference from the diary of Joachim Scholl, a Tiger commander, where its commented that he was captured after is track was 'blown off' by a Thunderbolt. Of course this could mean that they were blown off by a bomb dropped by the thunder bolt, but the worded to me sounded more like the aircraft itself may have done the damage. Interesting document either way I guess. Keep in mind that it would be very hard for a pilot to note an immobilisation hit against a tank from the air, so Im not particually suprised that accounts of it happening are hard to find. http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/tales_jscholl.html Thus, I think that saying it was an *impossiblity* that a Tiger or for that matter other WW2 tanks to be immobilised by a lucky burst from an aircrafts gun is still rather extreme. Should it be anything but extremely rare, defiantely not, but I dont think it should be impossible either. And no, I dont think its even worth asking Charles about at this point as its not something Ive never seen happen before and there are potentially other causes for it this situation Dan PS : And yeah guys, the bouncing thing sounded like a tall story to me too Still, it was metnioned by someone who was actually there so I figured it worth passing along. Id say its much more likely they were getting a lucky hit on the above and thought that is what was happening. [ November 29, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Err, you dont think that a lucky burst of .50cal rounds could break a track pin, find its way through a weak point in the engine grill or some other weak spot towards the read of the tank, especially considering an aircraft is firing with 6-8 guns? Ive *never* seen it happen in game myself, and Ive played a lot including that scenario some 30 times. As such it must be EXTREMELY rare and Im not suggesting it should be otherwise, but I seriously doubt it to be an impossibility. In fact I saw a doco a while back where a P-47 pilot was interviewed and said that they found if they aimed at a road in front or behind of a tank they could often bounce the .50cal rounds through the lower hull. That being said I was just taking a guess at what might have happened in the scenario described above. Its not impossible that the vehicle just happened to throw a track whilst being strafed. Dan [ November 29, 2003, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Hehe, oops...that shows that I dont know a hell of a lot about aircraft Dan

Blah, the P51 has eight .50cal mg's if I recall correctly, and it would only take one hit from thats in the right (or wrong ) place to snap a track. Also note that they can be immobilised by a round through the tanks thin engine covers, too. Not something you see happen too often, but very possible. Dan [ November 29, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Thanks for sharing Elmar! Out of interest, was that your first run through the battle...if so you do very well indeed, hehe, glad you enjoyed it! Btw guys, Ive noticed one or two comments in other thread about the map being a little small. I just wanted to let you guys know that we decided to keep it smaller to allow people with slower systems to see what CM has to offer to them whilst making a small but exciting little battle. It does limit replay somewhat, but hey, thats what the full game is for, hehe Hopefully you guys enjoyed it too...I know Ive played it several times! Dan [ November 29, 2003, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Treeburst, glad you think so...I think so too to be honest Dan

No, there is no bug here guys, actually its my fault. The problem is that I made the allied pilot 'green', as I didnt want him to be too deadly on the battlefield against the Germans. As a side effect it seems that he is targetting allied troops by mistake more than I expected, particually if he shows up a little early If anything its just a small problem with this scenario though (and something I had only seen twice in over 30 games). It isnt a bug, and actually is potentially something a pilot out on his first flight or two may have done unfortunately. Btw guys, I have a perfect example of a real world meeting engagement here on a WW2 German training video I bought. In the trianing simulation, the Germans have had their front lines broken through by the attacking Russian troops. A German unit being held in reserve is ordered forward to meet the Russians and to blunt and then stop their advance. Its verying interesting actually and shows Jpz IV's and flame half tracks in action and is worth picking up if you see it about . Dan [ November 28, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Blah, I had have very good success with the 50mm AT gun on Line of Defense, usually killing 2 or 3 vehicles with it, sometimes more. I would suggest picking off vehicles as soon as they come into site...dont wait until there are several in view or they will be ale to take it out pretty quickly with combined fire. Also its origional position might not be the best available...try experimenting. Ive found that I can usualy get 2-3 shots of from it if spotted and if you pick your target well it should alreade be dead Dan [ November 28, 2003, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Guys, if representing a full squad is a direction we do decide to head in do note that we wouldnt do it unless we felt it could be done properly. This is something we have stood firmly on in the past and it something we consider very important. Dan

Biff...dont worry it wasnt locked and we didnt take it in the wrong way...it was just moved to the tech support forum where it was more likely to get a useful answer. That being said I think it fell of the front page there before anyone answered, but I gave it a bump for you . Dan [ November 26, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Bump - Anyone have any ideas?

Uh ooh, and just had time to read the rest of the thread, hehe. Ive only had time to quickly read through the rest of this thread guys but thanks for clearing the air, its much appreciated. I think that that is a good note for this thread to be ended on, particually as the origional concerns have been answered as best they can Dan [ November 25, 2003, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Teach, dont forget to read my origional post in case you missed it...I think I address you main concern Dan

Whatever works guys. As I only have time to check the forum every so often and as those threads were probably going to hit the 300 mark before I checked again, I figured Id give them a new start. Generally 300 is fine if there is only one ot two such threads but generally 200-250 would be better. Ill lock this one up too now Dan [ November 24, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

Time for a new one guys...this one is HUGE Dan

Hi Guys! This thread is getting HUGE, so Im going to lock it up Please feel free to start anothe under the same title if needed. Dan

Good point Jon....Ive moved the spoiler to the top of the thread for those browsing the thread titles

Unfortuantely no, because then we would be accused by peopel for making a non-accurate wargame on North Africa and Italy...you know they will On top of that it is a slipperly slope for us because if we were officially support that theatre we would have to considering things like hedge cutters, different formations, etc. Dan [ November 23, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]