Wrath of Dagon Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Of course any accusation is automatically true, and I'm not even sure there was a claim of "deliberate". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkobmadrid Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Some call it immersion but I prefer the game to be a bit disconnected from bloody ongoing conflicts. Its like having fun the day of a funeral. But the most disturbing is the nature of this particular conflict. I've been a soldier but soldiers also know that deliberately killing civilians (as UN and Red Cross have already accused the IDF) is not what army teaches you. Extracting some meaningless tactical situations from this lop sided slaughter, this particular moment, lies almost on the edge of irony. you just drag me into this.... irony is when hamas make a UN school a place where he shoots rockets to the southern border of israel. irony is that the main hospital of gaza is the HQ and an ammunitaion warehouse for the hamas. irony is when the hamas takes the humanitarian supply brought from the israeli side of the border and sell it to he's own people after he took he's share. irony is then hamas " warriors" are running with baby's in their hand so they won't be fired at. you just read the headlines don't you. anyway, for some footage, there is an IDF youtube channel where you can see video's from the combat's. (notice video #4 "HAMAS shooting from UN...." http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I have to agree with MikeGER. In the context of cmsf, it would be lopsided to pit a tank platoon against a bunch of civilians. But... why can't you have a platoon of IDF infantry get isolated from their armor and heavy weapons getting surrounded and ambushed by a company sized element of hamas fighters. You don't even have to make the hamas guys conscripts either; after all, they are trained from toddlers in insurgent warfare. Make them veteran rating at least. You can even give them mortars (which they have). All it takes is a little imagination. Ali-Baba, I appreciate your good nature. I generally feel the same, but these wars we simulate are the same anywhere, any time. Every day there is a war going on somewhere with soldiers and civilians alike getting shot and blown up. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. The Napoleanic wars caused just as much bloodshed and misery as Israel vs the arabs. War is ugly, whether fought with missiles or rocks, it's no good. But if you ever find yourself leading a platoon of men through the mean streets of some ungodly craphole town somewhere or even fighting off some ungodly troops who are invading your ungodly town, your cmsf tactical knowhow just may save your life! (it could happen) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich12545 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 as UN and Red Cross have already accused the IDF That is total bs. Israeli soldiers do NOT kill civilians deliberately. Israeli soldiers, as a matter of policy, take great care to avoid civilian deaths. Palestinians, on the other hand, are the exact opposite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Let's keep this conversation on the cool side, OK? Personally, I don't believe that IDF deliberately targets civilians. However, the IDF has a history of killing UN personnel. During the Lebanon operation a UN observation post was laid waste, even though it had been there for years and yet was definitely deliberately targeted. I don't remember what the conclusion of the IDF was about that one, but of course people who want to think ill of IDF assumed that Israel was sending a message to the UN to get out of their way. Others simply chalked it up to military incompetence. Even the best militaries in the world have their fair share of SNAFUs, such as A-10s strafing friendlies who were in complete compliance with friendly identification procedures. This sort of war is VERY messy and Hamas has every intention of making it as messy as it possibly can be. Israel claims to understand this, though I'm not the only one to wonder if they really do. Too soon to say about this conflict. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAI Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Yes they do, if targets are among civilians. There was a school being used as a shelter that was attacked killing many civies because Hamas retreated into it thinking the IDF would let them go. Well, they didn't. The way they see it, Hamas is responsible for that. It's not like they don't know what the consequences of their actions will be though and not every would agree that it justifies killing civilians to get the bad guys. Well, even the UN had denied the presence of HAMAS fighters at the vicinity of the school at the time of the attack. Wonder what were IDF targeting there.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAI Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 as UN and Red Cross have already accused the IDF That is total bs. Israeli soldiers do NOT kill civilians deliberately. Israeli soldiers, as a matter of policy, take great care to avoid civilian deaths. Palestinians, on the other hand, are the exact opposite. Do the math here.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well, even the UN had denied the presence of HAMAS fighters at the vicinity of the school at the time of the attack. Wonder what were IDF targeting there.... Something like this perhaps: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Some incidents that have really disturbed me, that the IDF really needs to explain and/or justify: 1. Ambulances being prevented from evacuating starving children from the ruins of a building filled with dead and wounded civilians. The dead included the mothers of the children. The Red Cross was forced to walk 1km and evacuate the children on a donkey cart. As one journalist put it, the Red Cross is not normally in the business of anti-Israeli propaganda. It they say that's what happened, then as far as I'm concerned, that's what happened. 2. Palestinian civilians ordered into a building by the IDF, allegedly for their own safety, only for the IDF to subsequently shell the building the next day, killing 20 or so. Of these two, I would suspect the 2nd is an accident rather than a deliberate attempt to kill civilians - but it looks absolutely awful in terms of public relations for the IDF as it has echoes of the Germans in WWII rounding people up into buildings and then throwing grenades inside. As I said it's probably an accident, but still, some IDF officer needs shooting for this one. My suspicion is that Israeli soldiers and commanders view Palestinian civilians as a bit less "civilian" than their own, on the grounds that HAMAS was elected by these very same civilians, and the civilians are largely in support of attacks against Israel because they are refugees and families of refugees created by Israel from '48 onwards. You only have to ask yourself how you'd feel about civilians if you thought they hated your guts and would cheer gleefully if something bad happened to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 you just drag me into this.... irony is when hamas make a UN school a place where he shoots rockets to the southern border of israel. irony is that the main hospital of gaza is the HQ and an ammunitaion warehouse for the hamas. irony is when the hamas takes the humanitarian supply brought from the israeli side of the border and sell it to he's own people after he took he's share. irony is then hamas " warriors" are running with baby's in their hand so they won't be fired at. you just read the headlines don't you. anyway, for some footage, there is an IDF youtube channel where you can see video's from the combat's. (notice video #4 "HAMAS shooting from UN...." http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk So, you think the official IDF channel is more reliable than a neutral source like UN or Red Cross. Now, that's the definition of irony. Did you believe this guy as well?? UN and Red Cross have not confirmed "Hamas fighters carrying babies". They have however confirmed IDF killing civilians after rounding them up in a "safe" building. So, I read the headlines while you just talking bs. You have to try much better than providing an official propaganda channel link. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 One more thing I'd like to add to the discussion. I remember watching a report years ago in which it showed that most of the weapons Israel has originate from the USA, and have things like "Made in America" stencilled in bold letters on them. Like it or not, whenever Israel does stuff like this, Palestinians see bomb fragments with writing on proudly proclaiming that the weapon was made in America and grow to hate the USA just that little bit more than they already do. It is therefore very much in the interests of American national security that US weapons sold abroad are used responsibly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkobmadrid Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 So, you think the official IDF channel is more reliable than a neutral source like UN or Red Cross. Now, that's the definition of irony. Did you believe this guy as well?? UN and Red Cross have not confirmed "Hamas fighters carrying babies". They have however confirmed IDF killing civilians after rounding them up in a "safe" building. So, I read the headlines while you just talking bs. You have to try much better than providing an official propaganda channel link. what's the propaganda? this is the UN school in gaza, and there is the launcher. that's why they published it. so what do you say? the hamas is being careful not to shoot from populated areas? LOTS OF LAUGHS. there is no clean war. and mistakes do happen. but the hamas is using their population as a shield. i'm not happy with civilians get killed but you can't shoot and run the to the church. you want to believe it's propaganda. live with it. i don't have to prove anything, you have the footage. believe in what you want to believe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSY Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 what's the propaganda? this is the UN school in gaza, and there is the launcher. that's why they published it. Care of Haaretz: "In briefings senior [israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school," Gunness said. "The IDF admitted in that briefing that the attack on the UN site was unintentional." He noted that all the footage released by the IDF of militants firing from inside the school was from 2007 and not from the incident itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 i don't have to prove anything, you have the footage. believe in what you want to believe. Well obviously it is the wrong footage. Next time before accusing someone of "just reading the headlines" make sure you have at least read the right ones too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 In the future, when Battlefront have made millions from their DoD contracts, ahem, we can all dream, would it be possible to take the basic engine and turn the game into a skirmish game. I was thinking, could each soldier be individually modeled as are AFV's, scenarios would be platoon/company size with perhaps a few AFV's fighting on small patches of terrain. Troops could move individually, like AFV's now, with perhaps preset templates allowing proper formations, just a thought. As for the recent comments on Israel, what relevance do they have to CM:SF? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkobmadrid Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well obviously it is the wrong footage. Next time before accusing someone of "just reading the headlines" make sure you have at least read the right ones too. this incident or not, the point is that they are shooting from populated places so the civilians will be a human shield. this is the point. they did it then and they do it now. it is pointless using specific footage or another. the claim is that they fire from schools, hospital and etc. it's well known. but don't let the facts confuse you.you already have an opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 this incident or not, the point is that they are shooting from populated places so the civilians will be a human shield. this is the point. they did it then and they do it now. it is pointless using specific footage or another. the claim is that they fire from schools, hospital and etc. it's well known. but don't let the facts confuse you.you already have an opinion. And instead of treating these people as hostages, Israel just blows everyone up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Care of Haaretz: Well obviously it is the wrong footage. Next time before accusing someone of "just reading the headlines" make sure you have at least read the right ones too. The video I posted above was from 1-8-2009. I have seen the 2007 video referenced here. It is different. I believe the older one is of a mortar actually firing from a school. This is of a rocket being erected and prepared to fire in a school compound during the humanitarian ceasefire. This footage was only released yesterday. It is at the end of this compiliation of various IDF activity: http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/G0nZEEkGdfE 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Those videos prove nothing anyway. I only see plain and lifeless buildings. The whole gaza strip is build up and I wouldnt expect them to fire from rolling cornfields. Hamas, right or wrong is elected by the palestinian people. Would they still support them if they tied their babies on the launch tubes? I don't think so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSY Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Some interesting information on Israeli leadership from W. Patrick Lang former Green Beret, former Defense Intelligence Officer for the Middle East, South Asia and Terrorism, and former West Point Professor of the Arabic Language at West Point. Looks like this is both relevant to the current discussion and to any attempt to model the Israeli army in a CMSF setting: I associated with and/or conducted liaison with The Israel Defense Force (IDF) for many years. ... I have had many occasions to visit Israel and to watch the IDF in action against various groups of Palestinians all over the West Bank. I have many friends who are retired and/or reserve members of the IDF. My observations concerning the IDF are based on that experience. ... There are no career ground force sergeants except as technicians. Unless the system has changed very recently, the IDF ground forces typically do not have career NCOs in the LINE of the combat arms. ... The IDF does have career NCOs but they are typically found in jobs of a more technical nature rather than junior combat command at the squad or platoon (section) level. As a result, junior officers (company grade) are required to perform duties that in more traditionally organized armies would be performed by sergeants. Leading a small combat or reconnaissance patrol would be an example. As a result, a non-reserve infantry or tank company in the field consists of people who are all about the same age (19-22) and commanded by a captain in his mid 20s. What is missing in this scene is the voice of grown up counsel provided by sergeants in their 30s and 40s telling these young people what it is that would be wise to do based on real experience and mature judgment. In contrast a 22 year old American platoon leader would have a mature platoon sergeant as his assistant and counselor. As a result of this system of manning, the IDF's ground force is more unpredictable and volatile at the tactical (company) level than might be the case otherwise. The national government has a hard time knowing whether or not specific policies will be followed in the field. For example, the Israeli government's policy in the present action in the Gaza Strip has been to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. Based on personal experience of the behavior of IDF conscripts toward Palestinian civilians, I would say that the Israeli government has little control over what individual groups of these young Israeli soldiers may do in incidents like the one yesterday in which mortar fire was directed toward UN controlled school buildings. In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it. In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble. I have seen a lot of things like that. ... In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Stikkypixie wrote: And instead of treating these people as hostages, Israel just blows everyone up. This is the dilemma that Israel faces. When police in the USA are called into an area where there is a hostile person/s they can't use deadly force indiscriminately. And by that I mean using it in any way that could be considered reckless. If a police force, for example, blew up an entire building with people in it so they could get the hostage taker, the officers involved would be imprisoned for various crimes including civil and/or criminal taking of innocent life. At the very least public opinion would be very negative (think of the two big hostage disasters in Russia). This is because the ones in the right (police) are not allowed to use tactics/force that would result in more death/destruction than the ones in the wrong (the bad guys). The problem for Israel is that out of the thousands of rockets launched by Hamas they have killed, what, 4 Israeli civilians? Out of all the strikes from Israel some 300 or so Palestinian civilians have been killed. The argument is that Israel's ability to avoid causing civilian casualties is nearly 100 times WORSE than Hamas' ability to purposefully cause them. One can easily make the case, therefore, that Israel's actions of self defense are not in proportion to the threat and are a violation of the Geneva Convention. "We're being as careful as we can be" defense does not change the facts. Which is exactly why Hamas provoked Israel into attacking and is continue to keep the action going. It is a PR war and it is one that Israel, with such tactics, can not win. Not even in the West, which is generally sympathetic to Israel. However, Hamas doesn't care about that because they want a PR victory within the Middle East. They have that in abundance now and every day that Israel continues to cause civilians to die Hamas' victory grows. Well then, if this is such an obvious path for Hamas victory... why does Israel continue to give the enemy EXACTLY what it wants? Because Israel doesn't know what else to do except continue with strategies which have clearly never given Israel what it really wants... long term security. Their utter failure to secure their goals in Lebanon 2006 might not happen again, for various reasons, but tactical results against Hamas won't do anything to further Israel's overall goals for the Gaza Strip and the Palestinians in general. What we have here is something which CM:SF was specifically set up to simulate: asymmetric victory conditions. Hamas entered this fight knowing that it would lose militarily, but confident that it would win politically. Israel entered the fight knowing that it would likely lose politically, but reasonably sure it would win militarily. If the end conclusion is that Hamas' rocket attacks stop, it's leadership damaged, and its fighting capacity generally reduced, by Hamas' definition it still won the battle even though Israel could theoretically declare itself the victor. But the end result will still be that there is no lasting peace for either side and that means the Palestinians will continue to be impoverished pawns of foreign states and that Israelis will continue to have their lives dominated by the various costs of fear. What a way to live. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 PSY, Ouch. News to me and a great source of confusion for me as well. In most Western countries it is generally thought that the quality of NCOs dictates the quality and capabilities of a military force more than any other factor. I know plenty of US officers that would agree with this statement. In fact, most of them (I think) would say that any officer that doesn't agree probably shouldn't be an officer. So if this report is accurate (any in the IDF care to comment?), I'm befuddled. How can the IDF, one of the most actively engaged military forces in the world, pursue any policy that overlooks the need for a solid, career NCO cast? NCOs are the glue that keeps a formation doing what it is instructed to do, what it is intended to do, and what it ought to do. This is not to say that NCOs are the sole reason for the success or failure of a military force. Not true at all. But without them all the stresses on that military force, which are a normal part of combat (especially combat), tend to be reacted to by base instincts instead of measured response. I say this based on years of historical study of various military forces stretching back more than 100 years. Looks like this is both relevant to the current discussion and to any attempt to model the Israeli army in a CMSF setting: The easiest way to do this is to give the forces reasonably good Experience (Green, Regular, and Veteran) but stick them with negative Leadership Modifiers. What this means is that the individual soldiers are likely to perform well in individual tasks, like shooting and taking cover, but unlikely to do well when performing as a team. The more stress the unit takes, the less well it will work together. This in turn will cause the unit to do things like remain pinned longer, self-cancel user issued Commands, etc. Therefore, if the unit runs into light resistance it might perform quite well. But hit it with the unexpected and sustain the pressure... the unit will likely behave poorly. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSY Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 PSY, Ouch. News to me and a great source of confusion for me as well. In most Western countries it is generally thought that the quality of NCOs dictates the quality and capabilities of a military force more than any other factor. I know plenty of US officers that would agree with this statement. In fact, most of them (I think) would say that any officer that doesn't agree probably shouldn't be an officer. So if this report is accurate (any in the IDF care to comment?), I'm befuddled. How can the IDF, one of the most actively engaged military forces in the world, pursue any policy that overlooks the need for a solid, career NCO cast? I was pretty shocked as well. Everything I've ever read emphasizes the importance of NCOs. If you follow this link, Colonel Lang explains that: [it is a] structural tradition that derives originally from the Russian tsar's army and which came to Palestine through Russian and Polish Zionist immigrants. Then this passed through the Haganah into the IDF. The IDF "line" conscripts what amount to yearly classes of recruits and selects from them more promising soldiers who are given NCO level command responsibilities as; infantry leaders, tank commanders, artillery gun captains, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 In the UN school incident, it was confirmed by Palestinian residents that Hamas was shooting mortars from near the school, and then also took cover in the crowd. Israel apparently returned indirect fire, not knowing there were people at that location. UN only said there was no Hamas in the school itself, nothing about outside of the school. In the shelter house case, a group of soldiers saw some fleeing Palestinians on the street and ordered them to take shelter in a near by building. A day later the same building was hit by a shell, for an unknown reason. There's no evidence that this was done deliberately. The UN in Gaza are basically Hamas collaborators, they never demanded a war crimes investigation while Hamas was intentionally targeting Israeli civilians for years, but once Israel responds they suddenly wake up. As far as lack of NCO's, historically Israel seems to have done pretty well militarily. And US forces with their wise old NCO's had quite a few horrific incidents where dozens of civilians were accidentally killed in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The truth is this is war, and mistakes will always be made in a war. Edit: From reading some of his other comments, this Lang guy seems quite anti-Israel, so I wouldn't take his word as gospel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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