Michael Wittman's Demise - did we find the answer?

[P51D]

No mystery exists.

The published account is, as i said, contained within the After the Battle publication Panzers in Normandy. If the book was originally published in 1983 as john says then at the time the related magazine series of the same name contains a nore detailed breakdown of the research. This i know because i used the magazine as an intial point of reference for the Tiger in Normandy that formed the main part of my paper. I was looking at back copies of the magazine in late 97 or 98. It was after i read the book that i became aware of Wittmans discovery. This lead me to more copies of the mag pertaining to the discovery. I do not know the dates of the mags as it was 5 years ago as i said. I have been involved in much more in depth research on other topics since then so u will excuse me if my memory regarding issue numbers is non-existent.

The book also contains the photos illustrating the damage to 007 & shows the photo of wittmans grave. As i said previously i do not know if the discovery of his remains was only included in the updated late 90's version of the book or was in the 1983 version. If it was 83 then AtB mag of that time contains more in depth info. If it was sometime mind 90's then correspondingly AtB contains same.

My paper was not unpublished. It was published in the journals that we use everyday to keep in touch with research projects around the world in much the same way that medical journals are produced to inform those in the medical profession of health related news. Much of which is of little or no relevance or importance to the

general public. It is not my fault that most of these type of journals are not available to the general public especially as it was 5 years ago.

To historians they are the lifeblood of our profession. We need them to keep in touch with

what is happening on the other side of the world in our profession. They are where important findings or theories are published.

It should be noted that most of the publications listed of a first person narrative nature are in escence, non-fiction novels & as such are not subject to stringent research required by the profession. In short anyone can print/publish what they want & it be taken as the truth. The confusion about Wittman stems all the way back to 1944 & the announcement by SS HQ that he had been KIA.

I originally responded to the request regarding Wittman because of the incorrect facts highlighted by authors that i knew to be wrong. I knew they were wrong because as professionals we know they are wrong. That is why my company is in existence. We cannot deal with facts that are incorrect because we would be unemployed. It is also why we are employed by academic bodies, government depts, institutes etc to give lectures & reports etc on WW2.

Ed

[Måkjager]

I have a difficulty in accepting the theory that Typhoons knocked out Wittmans Tiger due to the one photo of the ko Tiger 007 that Wittman was in command of that day.

To the best of my knowledge Typhoons carried 60lb rockets which they used to fire on enemy ground forces.These i think would have been fired in a volley to best maximise the chance of success against a target.

Looking at the same photo of the ko Tiger that has been published in Panzers in Normandy - Then and Now , Tigers in Combat 2 , Michael Wittman and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte and any other publication with the same photo i fail to see any evidence of impact craters from the other rockets which must have fallen near the Tiger. I may be wrong as the angle of the shot is not expansive enough to allow us to see these other craters but i do doubt that it was a rocket firing Typhoon that caused the damage to the Tiger.

Furthermore we are told that the Tigers in the force began to take fire from the right flank. It would have been common sense and standard military practice for the Tigers to turn and also to rotate their turrets to try engage the enemy...presenting their thickest armour to the threat

If this is what happened then the turret side with the escape hatch would have begun to move towards the right...beginning to align it with the rear deck / engine compartment that is allegedly have been the hit point of the rocket.

If you look at that side of the turret in the picture you will see that there is no evidence of blast damage to either the hatch , zimmerit or rear turret stowage box.

If you take the scenario that the Typhoon fired and hit the rear deck while the turret was facing near the 12 o'clock position..then how come the rear stowage box is still intact with the turret? With no sign of extensive blast damage?

I have no experience of explosives..but i do know that 60lb of HE is 60lb of hurt..and that a "flimsy" stowage box would have been ripped asunder from the blast.

For me Joe Ekins did his job that day.

Regards

Måkjager

[Viceroy]

Michael,

Tout in "A Fine Night for Tanks" 1998, is sure that Joe Eskin's Firefly got Wittmann and a few other Tigers in that engagement. He says no ground support aircraft were flying until later in the day. Tout also says there were some 34 Fireflies, "...within range of Wittmann's route..."

Reynolds in "Steel Inferno" 1997, explains how "A" Squadron of the 1st Northants Yeomanry had generally been credited with the kill. He then says, that "recently" Hubert Meyer in the magazine Der Freiwillige claimed that a Typhoon had got Wittmann. Reynolds concludes that, "...the only thing that therefore which can be said with any certainty is that Wittmann did not survive the 8th of August...."

Reynolds writes that Wittmann's remains were found in March '83 and matched with his dental records. An ID disc of his driver H.Reimers was found in the "intermingled remains. Tout and Kurowski say the same thing.

Kurowski in the 1992 "Panzer Aces" claims that the Shermans got Wittmann. In the 2000 edition there is an editors note which says that some now claim a Typhoon got the hit on tank 007.

Kurt Meyer in "Grenadiers" who was in the vicinity at the time says that at shortly before 1100hrs near Hill 190 allied planes attacked a combat team of the Algonquin Regiment under Lt-Col Worthington. So it would seem some allied planes were active on the morning of the 8th.

[ May 28, 2002, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Viceroy ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by P51D:

No mystery exists.

Au contraire, the plot thickens!

Originally posted by P51D:

It was after i read the book that i became aware of Wittmans discovery. This lead me to more copies of the mag pertaining to the discovery. I do not know the dates of the mags as it was 5 years ago as i said. I have been involved in much more in depth research on other topics since then so u will excuse me if my memory regarding issue numbers is non-existent.

I think it was General Kutusov who said "The worst pencil is better than the best memory", but I'm not sure, because I didn't write it down.

Originally posted by P51D:

The book also contains the photos illustrating the damage to 007 & shows the photo of wittmans grave.

The only photo I have seen of 007 certainly does not support the conclusions you seem to have drawn from it. How many such photos are there?

Originally posted by P51D:

[snips]

It is not my fault that most of these type of journals are not available to the general public especially as it was 5 years ago.

No, but it very definitely is your fault if you refuse to provide a clear reference to it. Now, for the third time of asking, will you please give a reference to your paper? Journal title and issue number and author's name will be sufficient. In the absence of such a reference, suspicious-minded people may begin to suspect that you are not what you claim you are.

Originally posted by P51D:

I originally responded to the request regarding Wittman because of the incorrect facts highlighted by authors that i knew to be wrong. I knew they were wrong because as professionals we know they are wrong.

This sounds very like an argument from authority. If you are really an academic historian, you will know how much such arguments are worth. I'm also somewhat surprised that you don't think Ken Tout or Mike Reynolds are part of the military history community. The British Army seems to think that they are.

Oh, and just in case it's not mentioned in the paper of yours that you are about to post a reference to, could you tell us which Typhoon squadron it was whose operations book showed the attack on Wittman's Tiger? A PRO piece number would be ideal, but it shouldn't be hard to finmd with just the squadron number.

All the best,

John.

[Gpig]

I gotta tell yah. I LOVE this forum.

THis is like watching a great courtroom drama. Each side armed with a dizzying array of facts and knowledge.

One side started out with apparent authority on the matter, but has since slipped into and under a fogbank of suspicion due to some sharp investigative reasoning. Hee hee hee. Fun fun fun.

Gotta say . . . I'm rooting for Eskins. (As I agree with the photo evidence argument pointed out by MJgr, above.)

Of course, I don't know a THING about what happened to Wittman.

Gpig

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Gpig:

[snips]

THis is like watching a great courtroom drama. Each side armed with a dizzying array of facts and knowledge.

[snips]

Gotta say . . . I'm rooting for Eskins.

{John D. Fiddlespoon, of Fiddlespoon, Grognard & Claptrap (solicitors and commisioners for oaths) rises, and interjects:}

On a point of information, that's "Ekins", M'lud.

{Lord Justice Cocklecarrot (for it is he) peers over half-moon glasses and mutters:}

I'm grateful to counsel. Proceed.

All the best,

John.

[zukkov]

hey kingfish, i think ole wittman was just yankin' your chain for the free beers. and let me know when you get zhukov in there with patton. i'll buy a front row ticket for that matchup!

[Joe Shaw]

Now, for the third time of asking, will you please give a reference to your paper? Journal title and issue number and author's name will be sufficient. In the absence of such a reference,

suspicious-minded people may begin to suspect that you are not what you claim you are.

Salt, Salt, Salt, lack of faith is a terrible thing. You have such a suspicious mind.

I am nowhere near as suspicious as you Salt, I think you should be ashamed of yourself ... of course any historian worth his ... ahem ... salt ... keeps pretty good records and has his sources to hand since historians are such nasty creatures and need chapter and verse on everything. And most historians that I know have everything they've ever published memorized so as to WoW! the lads at the club.

Hmmmm, on the other hand perhaps if P-51D could provide us with, oh I don't know, perhaps an email address ... or an occupation or a location ... or perhaps even the name of the company he refers to. It's awfully easy to drop into a BBS and claim anything at all, not that I think that of P-51D of course, but SOME suspicious minds might. Thank Gawd I'm not that sort.

Joe

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by P51D:

No mystery exists.

The published account is, as i said, contained within the After the Battle publication Panzers in Normandy. If the book was originally published in 1983 as john says then at the time the related magazine series of the same name contains a nore detailed breakdown of the research. This i know because i used the magazine as an intial point of reference for the Tiger in Normandy that formed the main part of my paper. I was looking at back copies of the magazine in late 97 or 98. It was after i read the book that i became aware of Wittmans discovery. This lead me to more copies of the mag pertaining to the discovery. I do not know the dates of the mags as it was 5 years ago as i said. I have been involved in much more in depth research on other topics since then so u will excuse me if my memory regarding issue numbers is non-existent.

The book also contains the photos illustrating the damage to 007 & shows the photo of wittmans grave. As i said previously i do not know if the discovery of his remains was only included in the updated late 90's version of the book or was in the 1983 version. If it was 83 then AtB mag of that time contains more in depth info. If it was sometime mind 90's then correspondingly AtB contains same.

My paper was not unpublished. It was published in the journals that we use everyday to keep in touch with research projects around the world in much the same way that medical journals are produced to inform those in the medical profession of health related news. Much of which is of little or no relevance or importance to the

general public. It is not my fault that most of these type of journals are not available to the general public especially as it was 5 years ago.

To historians they are the lifeblood of our profession. We need them to keep in touch with

what is happening on the other side of the world in our profession. They are where important findings or theories are published.

It should be noted that most of the publications listed of a first person narrative nature are in escence, non-fiction novels & as such are not subject to stringent research required by the profession. In short anyone can print/publish what they want & it be taken as the truth. The confusion about Wittman stems all the way back to 1944 & the announcement by SS HQ that he had been KIA.

I originally responded to the request regarding Wittman because of the incorrect facts highlighted by authors that i knew to be wrong. I knew they were wrong because as professionals we know they are wrong. That is why my company is in existence. We cannot deal with facts that are incorrect because we would be unemployed. It is also why we are employed by academic bodies, government depts, institutes etc to give lectures & reports etc on WW2.

Ed

Do these journals have titles? I am sure I will have access to them at the local University, which has a very good military history department.

I'm twice published myself, with a BA in History. That means nothing on its own, but I should like to think that that experience would at least qualify me to read one of these journals. Or at least look at some of the smaller words.

[ May 28, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[aka_tom_w]

My very brief web search turn up this reference.

any of these books here help at all?

http://thunder.sonic.net/%7ebstone/blitzbooks/reich.html

-tom w

[Colin]

I wanna see what this guy comes up with.

[Kilgore]

From a quick search of the internet I found this;

Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition

From;

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/wittman.html

Unfortunately, the site doesn’t provide any references, so we're back to square one

Måkjager, are these the pictures you're referring to?

[aka_tom_w]

good picture of the fellow here:

http://www.sonnet.com/usr/aaron/witt.html

not much news on his death though.

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

From this page:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm

After further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of

25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting

compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the

turret into the air. According to Varin, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker

"Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took heavy tow of German

tanks during the Normandy battles (for example on August 8th of 1944, Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks and among

those Tiger #007).

Finally, it was proven that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire

Yeomanry. British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away.

According to original War Diary of "A" Squadron, at 12:20, 3 Tigers were moving towards the Squadron and were

destroyed at 12:40, 12:47 and 12:52 without any losses. After the first Tiger was destroyed at 12:40, second one returned fire

but was hit and blew up in a loud explosion. Following that, third Tiger was knocked out after receiving two hits. Wittmann's

Tiger was destroyed as second at 12:47 by British Sherman VC "Firefly", armed with 17 pounder gun capable of penetrating

Tiger's armor at range of 800m. The force of explosion blew off the turret, which landed upside down away from the hull.

Wittmann did not know that British had Firefly in the area and felt confident in attacking their position with his Tigers,

otherwise he would take different approach to the whole attack. After Wittmann failed to return from the battle, search for

him by the members of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" and his battalion took place during the day and on the

night of 8/9th.

Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux and were buried in

an unmarked grave. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the

construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and

Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag. Wittmann and his crew was then officially buried in the German Military

Cemetery of "De La Cambe" in Normandy, France. The cemetery is located on the National Road 13 (RN 13) between

Isigny-sur-Mer and Bayeux. Michael Wittmann is buried in square 47, row 3, grave 120 of "De La Cambe". On August 8th

of 1944, crew of Tiger #007 from 2nd Kompanie of schwere SS-Panzer Abteilungen 101 of LSSAH was as follows:

SS-Sturmmann Rudolf "Rudi" Hirschel (radioman) 24/1/3 - 44/8/8 (20 years old),

SS-Unterscharführer Henrich Reimers (driver) 24/5/11 - 44/8/8 (20 years old),

SS-Unterscharführer Karl Wagner (observer) 20/5/31 - 44/8/8 (24 years old),

SS-Sturmmann Günther Weber (loader) 24/12/21 - 44/8/8 (20 years old),

SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann (commander) 14/4/22 - 44/8/8 (30 years old).

He ended up his career as a Commander of 2.Kompanie schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101 (part of 1st SS Panzer Division

"LSSAH").SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann was the most successful tanker ace of World War II. His friends said that

Michael Wittmann was quiet man even during combat and that he had 6th sense, to know where and how to engage the

enemy. Wittmann commanded excellent crews, who were able to fully cooperate withhim and anticipated his orders.

Wittmann was highly admired by his comrades and very highly thought of by his superiors. Michael Wittmann represents a

real hero who fought to the bitter end for his Fatherland. Wittmann's personal bravery is unquestionable and his place in the

annals of military history thoroughly deserved.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gpig:

[snips]

THis is like watching a great courtroom drama. Each side armed with a dizzying array of facts and knowledge.

[snips]

Gotta say . . . I'm rooting for Eskins.

{John D. Fiddlespoon, of Fiddlespoon, Grognard & Claptrap (solicitors and commisioners for oaths) rises, and interjects:}

On a point of information, that's "Ekins", M'lud.

{Lord Justice Cocklecarrot (for it is he) peers over half-moon glasses and mutters:}

I'm grateful to counsel. Proceed.

All the best,

John.</font>

[The DesertFox]

Ah, one of my all time favorite topics *GGG*. Kilgore thanks for linking to the pics.[originally it was one pic, but here it is split in two halves]

I apologize, I wasn´t able to resist to reply to the bait. As you can imagine I collected some notes while doing my homework for Cintheaux-Totalize...here is some stuff you might be interested in.....lengthy post following.

P51D,

P51D wrote: He was killed by Tyffies

Well, considering your mentioned background you obviously know more than we know. Mind to give us specifics? Since you are such a well knowing lad, mind me to ask Where is that documented? Author, ISBN, etc. ?

P51D wrote: His body was discovered in the early 90's during the research for the After the Battle series of books entitled Panzers in Normandy Then & Now.

Unfortunately this is not the case. Serge Varin made contact with a few 12SS veterans in the last few decades before the remains were discovered, in particular with former Obersturmführer Hubert Meyer; photos and accounts were exchanged and Serge produced his photo of 007, for possible identification. This shot was later published in the 12SS Veteran Association Magazine in the late 70's and some time later, both vets from the 12SS and the SS101 Bttn. in particular were able to ascertain that indeed this photo of 007 showed Wittmann's mount when he was killed on Aug.8 1944, in the vicinity of Cintheaux and St-Aignan de Cramesnil near Gaumesnil !!

Contact was then made with The German War Grave Commission and it was decided to search the location and the bodies were finally unearthed in late March 1983 under German and local authorities supervision.

So stories of 'road construction' and 'farmer's ploughing' must be considered as pure FANTASY and ignored as such ! It is true that Jean-Paul Pallud did performed additional research and was involved in the discovery of the remains of Wittmann and his crew who were buried in a communal grave shortly after the fighting, in the immediate proximity of where 007 once stood [on the field of Mr. Paul Samson]. Not to diminish Pallud's dedicated work and efforts, it is a sad and recurrent fact that he and other authors on the subject always seem to 'omit' to give credit where credit is due...in this case to Mr. Serge Varin.

P51D wrote: I have all data at home somewhere.

Then I assume it should be no problem for you to give us some more "specific" data ? At least give us Author, magazine, etc. please....we all would love to learn something new which is factually evidenced.

P51D wrote: Photos are available of his Tiger with the turret heavily damaged

Nope! Au contraire! At least to my knowledge. No photos---ONE SINGLE PHOTO!----The turret of 007 isn´t heavily damaged. Please have a look at the photo on page 183 of "panzer in Normandy". The man who took the photo of the deturreted 007 is Monsieur Serge Varin. He photographed this Tiger in March 1945 totally by chance, while he was visiting the area with a friend; both were riding their bicycles and had stopped by the field where 007 was located for a pause. According to him, at the time you could not see the wreck as a tall hedgerow was hiding it from the road and, had they not stopped by, chances are they might have never spotted it.

So as Serge walked past the hedgerow and into the field, he then saw the wreckage and his curiosity was arroused by the fact that the turret was lying several meters behind.

He only took one shot of it, obviously completely unaware of what and whose Tiger it was at the time !(Oddly enough, this shot has been split in 2 frames in some publications, but they are really part of one and the same photo).

P51D wrote: & the engine deck destroyed from a large penetration

of the compartment.

Again au contraire! The photo doesn´t show such evidence. Please have a look at the photo page 183 of "panzer in Normandy" or Agte page 288 german edition or Schneider TIC-II page 290. 007 is showing a very intact rear end. If we assume that you drop what is in effect a 5 inch shell into the engine compartment, why didn't the tank even loose the command antenna container ? And of course, why is the "Rommel Kiste" of the turret still perfectly intact ?

P51D wrote: Definetly not an AP hit. It was all meticulously researched [...]

We are happy that you certainly are able to show us evidence or cite puplished sources that are able to support your assumptions. To get you start thinking...The damage...Only to expand on this line of thinking....if a 60lb ? High Explosive warhead of a 'Typhoon' rocket has indeed struck the engine deck of "007" leaving 'a large hole spreading all the way to the turret pit' as it is mentioned by some people, it would thus indicate the direction of flight would have been from behind the Tiger (ie. from the direction of the German lines) so:

a) you'd think the grenadiers and anyone else under its flight path would have noticed it flying over them and

the impact would have thus been from back to front. Now, not intimately knowing the effect of these rockets myself but 'assuming' a 60lb warhead would be capable of a fair amount of damage, I still have great trouble believing it could hit the deck and cause such a pentetration to armour plate, YET at the same time leave the thin sheet metal turret bin (Rommel Kiste) only inches away totally unmarked or holed in anyway?? As this is the condition it is seen in even after the secondary ammo explosion has flipped the turret into the air and landed it on the grass months later when photgraphed by Mr. Serge Varin.

A 17pdr AP round to my knowledge on the other hand could quite possibly inflict a gaping penetration yet produce no shrapnel or massive explosion in the process that would frag or mark surrounding paper-thin sheet metal. So even if we do agree there is a downward penetration on the deck based on solely Mr. Serge Varin's account, I'm afraid my money would still have to be on an AP round and not an HE warhead doing it.

How could the initial displacement of the turret have occurred as it did? We KNOW from the eyewitness accounts it WAS initially displaced onto the deck and most souces state (regardless of where either of us personally feel the hit came from - rocket or 17pdr), that it was the impact of this "ordnance" to the fuel tanks which produced the sheet of flame "explosion" which was remarked upon by both sides. The enormous shock wave of this blast in a sealed box such as a buttoned up tank would surely be quite capable of lifting the 20 odd ton turret (which only sat on the turret race by its own weight and wasn't locked down in any way) up slightly for a brief moment as a result and hence this displacement - the direction it went as it settled would have nothing to do with the angle it was hit from, but merely where the blast directed it as it was lifted.

P51D wrote: All material published since the discovery & publication has acknowledged this.

Again, please don´t mind to be more specific. Which material? When published? By whom published? Where published? It helps to seperate facts from assumptions.

P51D wrote: Ken's books were written some time ago.

Again au contraire! His book "A fine night for tanks" which is the relevant source on this matter was published 1998 by Sutton Publishing ISBN-0-7509-1730-X. "Panzer in Normandy" by Lefevre in contrast was published 1983, Second Edition 1990, reprinted 1993 and 1996 ISBN 0-900913-29-0.

OK, coming to the published data on this subject. Here goes: Accuracy and getting it right based on the known facts is not easy in this case, but not impossible IMHO. Basically we have two options:

The Typhoon story [serge Varin]:

'Editions Heimdal' who published Agte's book translation in France have included a text written by Mr VARIN that tells the story behind the photo of the KO´ed 007. This text was first published a few years before in the french magazine '39/45'. Here it is (translated by Yann Jouault and posted on the Missing Lynx forum some years ago. Jouault states that most of it was translated to the best of his ability and he hopes it's clear enough) :

"IN THE SPRING OF 1945, AS I TOOK A PHOTO OF THIS TURRETLESS TIGER TANK, I COULD NOT HAVE ANY IDEA THAT THIS PICTURE WOULD BE OF SUCH CONSIDERABLE INTEREST SOME FORTY YEARS LATER. SINCE LAST AUTUMN, I HAD BEEN RIDING ON MY BIKE IN AND AROUND THE SURROUNDING BATTLEFIELDS WITH MY KODAK CAMERA. I DISCOVERED THE TANK BY CHANCE AFTER I HAD STOPPED FOR A REST. AT THE TIME, YOU COULDN'T SEE IT SITTING ABOUT 60 METERS FROM THE ROAD AS IT WAS HIDDEN BY A TALL HEDGEROW. THE FACT THAT THE TURRET WAS LYING ON THE GROUND SEVERAL METERS AWAY AROUSED MY CURIOSITY.

I IMMEDIATELY NOTICED THE LARGE HOLE IN THE REAR DECK THAT WAS SPREADING ALL THE WAY TO THE TURRET PIT, AS WELL AS THE DISTORTED AND TORN DOWN COOLING GRIDS. ONCE I HAD CLIMBED ON TOP OF THE HULL, I FOUND OUT THAT THE INSIDE OF THE TANK HAD BEEN DEVASTATED AND DESTROYED BY AN EXPLOSION WHICH IN TURN HAD IGNITED THE TANK AMMO CAUSING THE TURRET TO TILT OVER AND FLY OFF. I WENT ROUND THE TANK AND COULDN'T FIND A SINGLE PENETRATION HOLE OR SHELL IMPACT IN THE HULL, NOR IN THE TURRET.

VERY OBVIOUSLY THE DAMAGE IN THE REAR ENGINE DECK HAD LED TO ITS DESTRUCTION AND COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY A PROJECTILE COMING FROM THE AIR SUCH AS ONE OR SEVERAL ROCKETS. I CAME ACROSS FURTHER EVIDENCE OF THIS ACCOUNT WHEN I FOUND (AND PHOTOGRAPHED) THIS TYPE OF PROJECTILE (i.e. ROCKET AS FIRED BY TYPHOONS) THAT WAS LYING UNEXPLODED NEARBY. THE ONLY CONCLUSION I COULD DRAW WAS THAT THE TANK HAD BEEN ATTACKED BY AN AIRCRAFT; LATER, FRIENDS OF MINE AS WELL AS THE OWNER OF THE FIELD (Mr Paul SAMSON WHO HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO SCRUTINIZE THIS TIGER WRECK UNTIL 1948 WHEN IT WAS TAKEN AWAY BY SCRAPMETAL MERCHANTS) ALSO SUSCRIBED TO THIS OPINION.

(...)

IN THE LAST TEN YEARS, AFTER IT WAS ESTABLISHED WHO WAS IN COMMAND OF TIGER '007' THAT DAY, MANY OF WITTMANN'S FORMER ARMOURED FORCES OPPONENTS HAVE HAD CLAIMS TO THIS PANZER ACE'S DEATH THAT CANNOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. IN MY OPINION, THIS WILL REMAIN SOME TYPHOON PILOT'S UNRECOGNIZED FEAT WHO HIMSELF MAY HAVE DIED LATER DURING THE FIERCE FIGHTING THAT TOOK PLACE THAT DAY.

(...)

IT SHOULD ALSO BE STATED THAT THIS PHOTOGRAPH WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN PERFORMING LOCAL RESEARCH (in march 1983). INDEED WITHOUT IT, THE REMAINS OF THIS FAMOUS PANZER COMMANDER AND HIS CREW MAY HAVE NEVER BEEN UNCOVERED".

(SERGE VARIN)

The Joe Ekins story:

An extract from the 1st Northants Yeomanry War Diary, which appears in Tracklink Number 48. The article is about trooper Joe Ekins, the firefly gunner who dispatched the three, and a possible fourth, that day. While not claiming Wittmann it was defiantly Wittmann's troop. Joe saw the first and third Tigers brew and the second Tiger " exploded in a sheet of flame".

"St. Aignan de Cramesnil

8th 1220 Three Tiger VI reported moving towards A Sqn. And were brewed at 1240, 1247 and 1252 hours, all without loss. Later 200 infantry with 20 tanks in support formed up to counter-attack and in a bombing attack which followed some bombs fell in our area."

So a bombing air attack was recorded but not a rocket attack and I assume they would have recorded the difference.

"At 1240 hours Captain Boardman gave Sergeant Gordon's tank the order to fire. The Tigers were seven-hundred meters distant. The Firefly's gunner was Trooper Joe Ekins, who hit the rearmost of the three Tigers in his sight with two shots. The Tigers had failed to spot the well-camouflaged Shermans, it was only after the shots had been fired and a Tiger knocked out that Wittmann transmitted the message referred to by SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Höflinger; "Move! Attention! Attention! Anti-tank guns to the right! - Back up!...". " (again p.425 Agte)

This one (ie. most likely "Wittmann's Tiger") reacted to the first Tiger being hit and stopped with the two 17pdr shots, by veering off to the right and returning fire with several shots back in the direction of the Shermans - quoting from Agte p.425 - "The Sherman (Firefly) changed its position somewhat to evade the Tiger's fire; one shell struck the turret hatch cover however, and wounded Sergeant Gordon in the head. He climbed out and Lieutenant James, his platoon commander, took over his tank and went back into position. At 1247 hours his gunner Ekins hit the second Tiger, which exploded in a ball of fire immediately after being hit. The foremost of the three Tigers was fired on by the other Shermans and was likely hit in a drive sprocket, for it began to spin in a circle. Ekins hit it with two shots at 1252 hours and the Tiger began to burn."

Agte's conclusion - "The three knocked out Tigers, about whose fate there are concrete details on the enemy side, were probably all accounted for by Trooper Ekins."

Höfflinger for example on p.424 of Agte (Eng. version) states that they began taking fire from "anti-tank guns" from the wood 800m to their right. "when I looked out to the left i saw that Michel's tank wasn't moving. I called him by radio but received no answer (...)". "The turret of Michel's tank was displaced to the right and tilted down somewhat" "Then my tank received a frightful blow and I had to order my crew to get out (...)". "I climbed into von Westerhagen's tank and, together with Heurich, whose Tiger was undamaged, tried to get to get to Michel's tank. WE COULDN'T GET THROUGH. Doctor Rabe also tried it, but in vain..."

The Brits claim 3 Tigers at that location, on that day, at that time, were KO'd by Firefly Gunner Ekins with 2 more unaccounted for but also stopped - one possibly from 75mm hits from the other Shermans to its drive sprocket (as it is noted it began to spin on the spot) and the other one travels on a bit futher to the road from Jalouise near ref. point 117 before being finished off somehow. But all with no mention of Typhoons again. 5 total are known to have been KO'd - Wittmann, Dollinger, Iriohn, Hoflinger and Klisters and 2 (or 3?) get away thereby making 8 total - as on p.425 Agte mentions these 3 (Blase, Rolf Von Westernhagen, and Heurich) as surviving, which coupled with 5 KO'd = 8

From his letter to Wittmann's widow on p.429 in Agte (Eng. Vers.), Dr. Rabe on the German side states he was trailing the Tiger's advance driving another vehicle before dismounting and proceeding on foot and witnessed Wittmann's Tiger going up from 250-300m. If there had been a raid by Typhoons in the middle of the action surely he would have been ideally positioned to observe it as they rored in low overhead?

p.429 Dollinger's account - "Heavy anti-tank guns, which we could not make out at all at first, opened fire on us from excellent positions."

Dollinger also states his lead tank was hit by a shell on the turret which caused them to bale out. His Radio Op. Alfred Bahlo backs this up by saying that "The hit which our panzer took penetrated the right side wall." (both p.429). Again no Typhoon strikes mentioned.

Max Wünsche when searching for Wittmann that night on p.430 - "After a while we began taking machine gun fire from right of the road. From some grenadiers I heard that Tigers had been knocked out by enemy anti-tank guns to the right of the road."

From p.425 "if" the info presented by Agte and After the Battle no.48 etc. is accurate there appears to be little doubt from the matching dates, matching times (Germans c.12.55pm vs. Brits c.12.52), locations, ranges (Germans 800m vs. Brits 700m) and accounts from BOTH sides that both the British and Germans are each referring to the one incident in their accounts of it? If we accept this, then it appears to be solely a tank vs. tank duel.

Why is it that in neither the German or British accounts of this encounter there is no mention whatsover of any aerial attack taking place at any stage of the proceedings? Surely the presence of Typhoons would have been obvious to both sides, especially the British, who were sitting off to the side with a clear view of the open paddock and the Tigers in it and would have duly noted it?? What possible reason would either side have for omitting this from their reports?

On the one hand we thus have quite detailed, timed, documented accounts on both sides and from numerous personalities involved in the action "first-hand", that supposedly are describing this same event and everything matches up almost precisely and it all points in every way to an armour duel? Ok... So here we have these 2 lots of logged first person accounts from 2 meticulous note taking opposing armies, but on the other hand...they are versus the recollections of one solitary French Monsieur who discovered and photograhed one of these KO'd tanks nearly a year later in "the Spring of 1945"?

Now please make your own conclusions what might have happened. For me it´s quite convincing that 1st Northants Yeomanry was responsible for the Tiger losses near Cintheaux. But I´m open to learn more if it´s factually evidenced and published.

cheers

Helge

Oh and BTW as a shameless plug, give my scenario "Cintheaux-Totalize" a try and have fun ! It´s available at Der Kessel

[ May 28, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: The_Desert_Fox ]

[Monkeybutt]

Wittman was killed in the study,with the candlestick by Col. Mustard.

Case solved.

[Jarmo]

A thought emerges.

Wouldn't it be likely, that Wittman's tiger, 007, was indeed destroyed by a Typhoon, but Wittman himself would have been killed in another Tiger by the Firefly?

As far as I know, Wittman did at some times grab someone elses tiger if his one was damaged. So it'd be entirely possible the man was riding another tiger when his luck ran out.

[offtaskagain]

007 was another commanders tank. It was assigned to the battalion CO, Rolf Von Westernhagen.

[Kilgore]

I didn’t notice it was all one pic. I put the images next to each other..

[ May 28, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Kilgore ]

[Måkjager]

Yes Kilgore..those are the pix i am refering to.

regards

Måkjager

[Sir Uber General]

Is it not possible that the Tiger was first KO'd by the FireFly and later rocket attacked, the pilot not knowing the tank was already dead?

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by Sir Uber General:

Is it not possible that the Tiger was first KO'd by the FireFly and later rocket attacked, the pilot not knowing the tank was already dead?

I wouldnt be suprised if that happened. Multiple units and vehicles claiming the same kill is nothing new.

[gunnersman]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sir Uber General:

Is it not possible that the Tiger was first KO'd by the FireFly and later rocket attacked, the pilot not knowing the tank was already dead?

I wouldnt be suprised if that happened. Multiple units and vehicles claiming the same kill is nothing new.</font>

[hitlers underpants]

i was reading this thread with interest at work earlier today,when i got home i checked my grandfathers old box(he was an unterofficer in the hitlerjugend,because i remember seeing some old photos of german tank crews,and what did i find!!!,a photo showing ss-untersturmfuhrer micheal wittmann being decorated with his liebstandarte crew 0n the 16 january 44.the photo looks like it was cut from an article,but on the back of the photo it names his crew and says that the only survivor of his crew in the war was a guy called balthasar woll,some other posts seem to mention his whole crew being killed,any clarifications from u grogs would be interesting