The end of capitalism as we know it?

[costard]

[quote=Lars;1092141\

Would you like a few more financial papers to argue with?

[Lars]

LOL.

Oh, and I suppose you think Oz is in better shape?

[Lars]

Here, we'll skip the editorials, and go to the history books.

Note date on New York Times news item. It's nine years old.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

You might want to look up Franklin D. Raines in the wiki. It's rather interesting reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Raines

[Wilhammer]

So, Affirmative Action (in this case, Affirmative Lending) has finally reached up and bit us in the ass...

[Abbott]

So, Affirmative Action (in this case, Affirmative Lending) has finally reached up and bit us in the ass...

Yep, Obama is proof of Affirmative Action gone awry.

[Tarquelne]

So, Affirmative Action (in this case, Affirmative Lending) has finally reached up and bit us in the ass...

I can confirm that. Bill Clinton came to my town and took the local banker's family hostage, only releasing them when the guy had arraigned enough high-profit, high-risk loans. There's "qualified", and then there's "qualified". He also ran over a dog on his way out of town.

And I hear my state Rep., a Dem., always bought the morning treats for the nearby loan-mill. Cubicle after cubicle of loan huskers, all hyped-up on decaf-double-milk lattes and éclairs. Nasty.

Plus that stuff about handing out "Boiler Room" tapes as part of training, threatening to fire loan officers who check incomes/credit for certain loans, altering loan documents in the "art department", and creating all those "WTF is it?" derivatives? All Barney Frank's ideas. Him or some poor black guy, I'm not sure on some of them.

Anyway, as a proud member of the Party of Personal Responsibility I stand with those saying that none of this is our fault, or the lender's or investor's fault. Now give us the f*cking 700 billion!

Yep, Obama is proof of Affirmative Action gone awry.

Really? Too "uppity", or something else?

EDIT: I want to thank Lars for those first couple of articles. A forum thread without a former Reagan official and a current GOP adviser, both AEI men, blaming the Democrats... well, it just wouldn't be right.

EDIT#2: Since this is my last post on the subject I want to be perfectly clear - I am NOT being sarcastic. After hearing that the GOP couldn't get any of it's they-would-have-saved-us bills through the previous couple of legislative sessions even though they had a majority I realized the Democrats must have evil magic powers. They must be stopped. I've joined the Wasilla Assembly of God and have become a proud Republican Witchhunter.

[Abbott]

Really? Too "uppity", or something else?

Before appearances they wheel him into make-up on a dolly, then to hair, then to the stage, podium or desk. Put him on a stand that belts around his lower back, then they run the strings up to the guys on the catwalk above the stage, pull the ring and the rest you can see for yourself.

[M. Bates]

The current crisis has nothing to do with the free market. We should have had a corrective recession after the dotcom bubble (also stoked by the fed) but it was not allowed to happen.

[volfrahm]

Why does just about everyone here hold the belief in negative liberty? Did you guys suffer from freedom being taken away from you as a child? What about freedom to to realize your super human strengths? If one is at all religious, especially in the Catholicism, then wouldn't positive liberty be the the only option?

I'm no political philosopher, but negative liberty to me seems like meaningless proposition.

[Lars]

EDIT: I want to thank Lars for those first couple of articles. A forum thread without a former Reagan official and a current GOP adviser, both AEI men, blaming the Democrats... well, it just wouldn't be right.

And the second two?

EDIT#2: Since this is my last post on the subject

You always say that.

[costard]

LOL.

Oh, and I suppose you think Oz is in better shape?

Hey, Oz is a quarry on a rock populated by the descendants of criminals. Nobody got money here - we export it.

[Abbott]

Hey, Oz is a quarry on a rock populated by the descendants of criminals. Nobody got money here - we export it.

.....

[Stalins Organ]

I see there's calls this morning to "let them fail" from various investors after teh house rejected the proposed deal.

Someone (an American billionaire-type investor - didn't catch the name) interviewed on our radio reckoned that Japan suffered a decade of stagnation after bailing its banks back in the 90's, whereas Sth Korea and Russia "took the hit", allowed them to fail (which certainly did hurt) but were able to recover very rapidly in the mid-late 90's.

[Wilhammer]

Since Mortgages are the core problem, why not help DIRECTLY the borrowers?

The one idea I have heard that I liked was to help out the financial institutions on the mortgages, but with a requirement they renegotiate the mortgages and freeze the values - and that every tax dollar spent on this creates taxpayer ownership in the institutions.

[costard]

Good suggestion Wilhammer - at least the houses are then being lived in: the asset is utilised and the value of it realised to some extent.

Why isn't the bill going through - not enough time to negotiate the requisite earmarks?

[Michael Emrys]

I got this in an e-mail a few days ago:

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to all Americans as a

"Dividend"

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide

U.S. Citizens 18+

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child.

So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals to a

hefty "$425,000.00"

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a "Dividend"

Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25.5

Billion right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife have $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - "housing crisis solved"

Repay college loans - "a great boost to new grads"

Put away money for college - "it'll be there"

Save it in a bank - "create money to loan to entrepreneurs"

Buy a new car - "create jobs"

Invest in the market - "capital drives growth"

Pay for your parent's medical insurance =E 2 "health care improves"

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks

who lost their jobs at

Lehman Brothers and every other company

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of

trickling out

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every

adult U S Citizen 18+

As for AIG - liquidate it and Sell off its parts.

Sell off the real estate. Let the private sector bargain hunters cut

it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and "AIG doesn't" we were not

invited to the last 10 years of "party time" bonuses

And remember, The this plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because

$25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam

Michael

[costard]

Not a bad idea - but for the fact that you'd kick off a round of hyper-inflation to match Zimbabwe's.

[Lars]

Why isn't the bill going through - not enough time to negotiate the requisite earmarks?

Because both sides felt it was being crammed down their throats, without any time to propose alternative plans.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGUdAgJdBQL0&refer=home

Many representatives opposed the measure after meetings with former Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Chairman Bill Isaac, who talked with groups of lawmakers over the past two days about alternatives to the steps outlined in Paulson's proposal, Issa said.

And here's his plan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/26/AR2008092602200_pf.html

[Hawkmek]

I have seen that same email around Michael.

Anyone do the math? 85B / 200M = 425 NOT 425K

Even 700B / 200M only gives each person $3,500

[Wilhammer]

Well, it seems they made it up!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/bailout-plan.html

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

They made it up to be sufficiently ginormous to frighten everyone into rapid action.

-----------------

I figure, at this rate, NO bailout will take place. However, something will be done to suspend or otherwise arrest the bleeding of Main Street - to hell with Wall Street.

[Lars]

Well, of course they made it up.

When nobody knows what the dang things are worth in the first place, what else could they do?

[Wilhammer]

http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/006208.html

"Likewise, the oddest thing about the crisis is how limited it has remained in scope. Some economists say that financial markets are an important indicator of where the real economy is heading. Some economists say that consumer confidence is a vital indicator. Well, stocks have been falling steadily for a year, dwarfing the daily fluctuations. Consumer confidence is nearing all-time lows. But the real economy seems to be healthy! Unemployment is near long-run averages, labor productivity is rising, real wages are rising, and GDP growth is choppy but positive. "

Let Them Fail - Time;

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1845209,00.html

[Wilhammer]

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/10-links-to-walk-you-through-todays-financial-crisis-and-make-you-smarter-than-99-of-other-people

[Redwolf]

A substantial part of these 700 Billion is supposed to come back.

You see, all these houses don't disappear, and people living in these houses are not freed of their dept.

One possible outcome is that things gets repaired and that these houses get back to their original value and that people still living in them, even if not currently paying, will pay in the future. If that happens, after a bailout, then this money will flow back into government money if tax money has actually been used up in the first place. The Feds are really not that stupid.

And that's the major difference from just giving those people who can't pay their mortgage money to make payment, then the money is gone.

Of course even in an ideal outcome there's still losses. Basically if a house is empty it doesn't fetch rent or interest and that's a permanent loss. But a home bought for $300K three years ago worth $150K now might be worth $300K or $350K in the future, and the bailout money is tied to that. The bailout money prevents bankruptcy of the lender while the price is at $150K. The theory being that bankrupt lenders are bad for overall business and for the housing market (nobody gets any loans).

Of course there's also the issue of money being payed in the bailout that is consumed by the lender companies themselves. Some costs you cannot avoid such as the basic administration people. Some cost you want to avoid such as giving a couple millions as rewards to executives who drove the company into the ground in the first place, but it might be a legal challenge to prevent that from happening.

[Lars]

Well, we've moved on from Bail Out Wall Street to... Bail Out The World!

Rep. Brad Sherman:

Larry you have to read the bill. It's very clear. The Bank of Shanghai can transfer all of its toxic assets to the Bank of Shanghai of Los Angeles which can then sell them the next day to the Treasury. I had a provision to say if it wasn't owned by an American entity even a subsidiary, but at least an entity in the US, the Treasury can't buy it. It was rejected.

The bill is very clear. Assets now held in China and London can be sold to US entities on Monday and then sold to the Treasury on Tuesday. Paulson has made it clear he will recommend a veto of any bill that contained a clear provision that said if Americans did not own the asset on September 20th that it can't be sold to the Treasury.

Hundreds of billions of dollars are going to bail out foreign investors. They know it, they demanded it and the bill has been carefully written to make sure that can happen.

And he ain't kidding, either. It's in there.