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Who is working on SL/ASL Scenarios?

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A word of caution - I'm playing Dalem at "Breakout from Borisov", and it's a bit of a walk over for me as the german.

Spoilers below....

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Looking at hte forces involved it's no wonder - the Russians get 2300 popints, the Germans 4300!!

The Russians get some KV's and a T 34 or 2 which could be game breakers of course, but the Germans get 3 Stuka's and a Me-110, so the heavy Russian armour simply gets smacked by airpower (KV-2 destroyed and KV-1 immobilised) making it..er....somewhat less overwhelming!

So please, please, please think about play balance when doing these conversions - as Dalem said - Russians in CMBB aren't quite so flash as they are in ASL (which I barely remember from playing a little 15-20 yrs ago!!)

A simple conversion of numbers might not quite work!

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Spoilers Below

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Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

So please, please, please think about play balance when doing these conversions - as Dalem said - Russians in CMBB aren't quite so flash as they are in ASL (which I barely remember from playing a little 15-20 yrs ago!!)

A simple conversion of numbers might not quite work!

Actually balance was a primary consideration on this scenario (and all my scenarios). There were several others who playtested the scenario and I play tested it myself (ongoing vs Skelley). I made alterations and asked for feedback on the alterations and all the alterations met with approval (and are listed on the scenario along with the averaged balance ratings as judged by the testers).

The Germans have no means of taking out the Soviet heavy armor other than the air support and from close combat - even from the flanks or the rear. If the Stukas didn't take out those tanks then nothing was probably going to. The German infantry and armor is also outnumbered by approximately two to one. The Soviet player also has much easier access to the victory locations as the German must use motorized transport to access many of them. The points alone don't tell the story (much of it is consumed by transport assets). You just got lucky with your air support - accept that you are just doing well compared to the experience that others had.

The most common remarks by the testers was that the Soviet heavy tanks dominated the battlefield wherever they were located - which made it difficult for the Germans to get access to the victory locations. I'm curious about what your victory rating is showing in your current game - do you have something better than 40%? If not, then you probably have a lot of heavy fighting ahead of you. ;)

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Incidentally Stalin's Organ, I do have an open PBEM slot right now, and I would be happy to take the Russians in "Breakout from Borisov" if you are up for it. smile.gif I can't imagine my forces getting walked over, but if you feel that you can manage it I'm certainly game. ;)

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Y're on buddy. Good on you for putting your game where your scenario design is! smile.gif

I'm away from home for a week from the 26th, but am on holiday until then too.

But of course if you win then maybe you're just a better player than Dalem??!! ;)

More spoilers follow

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I just counted the squads - 31 German vs 54 Russian - it certainly seems there's enough Russian infantry, but then 18 of those Russian squads are green, and 6 are conscript - one whole company consists of platoons that are each half green and conscript (one such platoon with a crack leader which seems a bit odd....)

The remainder are regular.

All the German squads are veteran.

The Germans get a fairly sizeable artillery compliment too, which easily neutralises any concentration of infantry moving, plus they have half a dozen MG34's which never helps infantry these days!!

I'm not sure what my current score is - we're up to a about T24 I think and IIRC I think I've secured 3 of the 4 major objectives and I'm not about to panic about getting the last one unles I can neutralise the remaining Russian heavies (there are no BT's or T26's left of course!!)

IMO one of the "joys" of playing as the Germans in 1941 is solving the tactical problems posed by the Uber tanks - I have killed one in this scenario with side shots from short-ish range (200m) - setting it up took 7 or 8 moves and was an exercise in hidden movement.

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Turn 24 and you've taken three of four objectives? That's excellent progress. The last two objectives are very difficult to get. There is always the possibility that I swung the balance too far towards the German with the adjustments - only one way to find out though. ;)

Actually I guess I should say that's three of five objectives (One, Two, Five .... 'Three sire, that's three') smile.gif ! Although many of the Soviet infantry are Green, there are quite a few Panzer Pioniere squads in the German inventory and they only have six men in each squad - so more like a half squad. I don't remember exactly how many, but something on the order of 8 to 12 Panzer Pioniere half squads springs to mind. The Soviet squads also have a 30 point FP advantage under 40 meters on average, and that isn't even counting the SMG squads and the Recon A squads. I do hope you can put your current victory percentage up because I really am curious. I would consider a walk over to be in the 80% or better range. I consider balance to be any scenario where, on average, the final victory percentage doesn't favor one side or the other by more than 60%. In other words, if you won a battle with a 60% score for you and a 40% score for your opponent then I feel I've done my job.

[ December 21, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: ASL Veteran ]

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Fair enough - we'll see smile.gif

To me it's a "walkover" because I'm not under any pressure rather than the score - in fact my opponent just offered to surrender and start again - I'll let him pick the scenario this time!! :D

At the moment the score shows 47:33 to me 'cos the central flag has just changed to Russian - apparently because a couple of Sov squads ran 5 yards towards it before being forced to hit the dirt - I expect it to change back shortly!! :D

But then I show 2 flags as neutral which are undoubtedly Sov....so reality will be something a bit different.

[ December 21, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organ ]

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Borisov spoilers below!

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Playing as the Soviet I found the following:

1) The German gets artillery, infantry, air power, and armor. The Sov gets infantry and armor.

2) In the original, the Sov at least has ATRs and a bit of mounted cav for some mobility. The German OB is essentially intact from the scenario.

3) The Soviet threat is absolutely one-dimensional. If I'd been able to keep my KVs alive perhaps they would have helped my infantry cross open ground. As it was I grabbed good initial positioning but my KVs were taken out by air power while trundling up to support the infantry (the BTs and I think one T-34 were lost in straight up fights where I was simply outplayed by my esteemed opponent).

4) The early war Sovs in BB are far less useful than their SL/ASL counterparts - infantry has obvious penalties in experience and the armor has rate of fire issues that are only compounded by crew inexperience. Add to that the suffocating effect of air support that is far more likely to appear and do damage in BB (while being immune to even the miniscule threat of HMG fire which was possible in SL/ASL) and I have to say this is not a fun time.

Even a few ATRs (which the scenario intro explains are left out due to inavailability in the timeframe of the scenario - but see M Doroshes comments above) would have allowed me to maybe threaten his light armor from concealment.

My suggestion would be to leave the German OB as is, tone down the air support, give the Sovs the ATRs back as above, and perhaps change the two KV-Is to three T-34s. This would give the Soviet player some insurance if the air threat is nasty but take away the "uber" factor of the KVs. I would imagine that had the Stukas been ineffective and my KVs free to shoot up suspected infantry positions, Stalin's Organ and I would be playing a different tune.

-dale

(After re-reading my post, I think my last sentence came out too harsh. What I meant was that had the Stukas been completely ineffective, I would probably be claiming my KVs were too powerful a threat, NOT that the Stukas were the only thing that kept me from winning. - dale)

[ December 22, 2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: dalem ]

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Originally posted by dalem:

Borisov spoilers below!

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As it was I grabbed good initial positioning but my KVs were taken out by air power while trundling up to support the infantry (the BTs and I think one T-34 were lost in straight up fights where I was simply outplayed by my esteemed opponent).

Why thank you Dale - that's not what yuo said in the Peng thread!! ;)

For the sake of completeness the A/c destroyed 1 KV-2 and immobilised a KV-1, another KV-1 was destroyed by a 50mm Pak 38, leaving 1 KV-1 and 1 T34 to roam the map at will - which was still fairly scarey but they could only be in 2 places at a time, and it's a big map!

I would imagine that had the Stukas been ineffective and my KVs free to shoot up suspected infantry positions, Stalin's Organ and I would be playing a different tune.

I agree!! smile.gif

Without the stukas the Russian armour would certainly have been a major problem - but I think upgrading the German AT assets a tad might've given them enough of a counter to make a game of it.

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Originally posted by dalem:

My suggestion would be to leave the German OB as is, tone down the air support, give the Sovs the ATRs back as above, and perhaps change the two KV-Is to three T-34s. This would give the Soviet player some insurance if the air threat is nasty but take away the "uber" factor of the KVs. I would imagine that had the Stukas been ineffective and my KVs free to shoot up suspected infantry positions, Stalin's Organ and I would be playing a different tune.

Balancing is always a delicate game .... perhaps that force mix just wasn't what you are used to or comfortable with. I don't have any doubt in my mind that the Soviet player is fully capable of pushing the German right off the map with that one dimensional force mix.

The big map works both ways - for the German it creates two problems .... 1st, they have to travel pretty far to take control of the victory locations. 2nd, they have a difficult time throwing up a defense line that can hold what they've captured because of the relatively low force to space ratio. The side effect of this also is that the farther the German pushes out from the main city to take victory locations, the more dispersed his forces become (and the more difficult it is for him to hold what he has captured from counterattack).

So there are advantages that each side that act to offset each other. Soviet advantages are:

1. Armored superiority (both numerically and qualitatively).

2. Infantry superiority (both numerically and in terms of firepower)

3. A favorable starting position (for access to the victory locations

4. Better force to space ratio

The German advantages are:

1. Mobility

2. Artillery

3. Air power

Okay, so how do these act when balancing .. the mobility offsets both the favorable starting position and the favorable force to space ratio that the Soviets have. The Artillery offsets the infantry inferiority. The Air Power offsets the armored superiority (and the infantry superiority too). Balancing isn't about three T-34s vs two KVs. It is about advantages and disadvantages and how they offset and interact with each other.

Each side has to play a different game to be successful. The Soviet player has to maximize his strengths and the German player has to maximize his strengths. Whether someone enjoys the scenario or not is going to be decided by their own personal preference. I view the airpower as a nuisance to be played around ... just like the artillery ... so it doesn't bother me at all (I've already mentally checked off a tank or two so when I lose one to a Stuka bomb I won't be disappointed).

I think that we can agree that with no airpower or artillery the German gets crushed, so the only balancing question is ... how much artillery and airpower do the Germans need for a German player to be successful (ie, at least get a draw, and have the capability of doing better) vs a Russian opponent of equal skill. From the looks of your scores so far, I think I've succeeded. Now, if the force mix that you are given isn't something that you like or are accustomed to ... well there isn't much I can do about that. Tailoring a scenario to meet everyone's ideal force mix is an impossibility (nor is it something I would desire to do since I view a scenario as a vehicle for a player to adapt their tactics to unfamiliar force mixes - thus improving their overall game).

Sounds to me like your expectations when starting the scenario were just different than what you got. Sorry for the disappointment.

"Capture of Balta" has a German infantry only force (with no armor or artillery) attacking a dug in Soviet force with tanks (small tanks, but certainly unopposed. It is the Critical Hit version not the original version of the scenario). Some players view the lack of axis armor in that scenario as a scenario breaker (cause they don't know how to deal with the unopposed tanks). I view it as a tactical problem to be solved and overcome.

"Commissar's House" has an infantry only force that has to take two large heavy buildings. Perhaps not every player is going to have fun taking a heavy building without having a bunch of tanks around to soften up the defenses for them. I have no doubt that some will walk away from that scenario and say "damn, that scenario sucks cause I don't get any tanks. It is completely unfair!". I do the best that I can, but ya can't please them all. smile.gif

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Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

Without the stukas the Russian armour would certainly have been a major problem - but I think upgrading the German AT assets a tad might've given them enough of a counter to make a game of it.

Alas, I did want to give the German tanks some Hollow Charge rounds and/or some APCR ammunition (as opposed to the powerful air component), but I couldn't because it was unavailable to any of the vehicles in the scenario at that time. I did increase the amount of APCR that the AT gun has though from three rounds to seven. Even with that though, I was only getting partial penetrations on the front of the KVs so that isn't a guaranteed kill by any means. Those PzIIIHs are the best thing the German's have got in July 41 as far as I could tell and they have the 50 short with a penetration of 63mm at 100 meters. The KV's side armor is 75mm at 0.

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Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

I was more thinking in terms of increasing the number of AT guns - either by replacing the ATR's or just in general. Another 1 or 2 of the guns would make thinkgs a lot more interesting as the german! smile.gif

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Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

I was more thinking in terms of increasing the number of AT guns - either by replacing the ATR's or just in general. Another 1 or 2 of the guns would make thinkgs a lot more interesting as the german! smile.gif

Okay, I'll admit that the Me 110 is a little more powerful than I had at first realized (even with only two strafes). Perhaps the elimination of the 110 would solve our balance problem. More testing required though ... We'll see how our battle progresses. Stukas don't seem very effective, but that 110 ... that might be another story. smile.gif

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WOW! I didnt realize this thread is here. I have been wrestling with adopting CMBB to some ASL scenarios. I decided to start easy and began with the first 3 scenarios,

The Guards Counterattack

The Tractor Works

and The Streets of Stalingrad.

The map was fairly easy but for a few things...it would have been nice to have single story buildings you could put together to make bigger buildings like you can already do with the heavy 2 story buildings. There was also a problem with roads, there was no simple Y intersection. I had to figure out a way to make something similar with what I had.

Another problem was OB's. I didnt need all the platoon HQ's. It would have been nice to add some single squads. I edited the extra HQ's to make them as ineffective as poss. but they are still there. The victory conditions had to be modified somewhat also but I think the spirit of the battle has been captured.

I played it so far as first Germans, then again as the Russians and it was quite fun. The AI is a bit stupid making peicemeal attacks and at one point actually abandoning the Factory. So I think if it is played as a hotseat game by yourself, we all did this with ASL, or even better, with a freind, it will be a real tough nut to crack.

The AI still managed to cause me grief, stopping a couple of my attacks and forcing me to regroup, reinforce, and attack again. The tanks were also a nice add into the game giving it a real twist in the street fighting. I saw one StG get hit by no less then 5 molotovs!

I guess what I am wondering now is, would anyone care to try the scenario? If so, can I upload it somewhere or simply email it to those that ask? I'd love to get more feedback on it. If it is well recieved, Ill try my hand at some more scenarios. I put a lot of work into it but by george, it was fun building it. smile.gif

[ December 31, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: pcpilot ]

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pcpilot,

I'll play with yours if you play with mine! ;)

I'm also trying to adapt 'The Guards Counter-attack'. It's my first attempt at a scenario and I wanted to concentrate on learning the editor on a basic map. By using this scenario as a basis I was able to eliminate alot of the thinking about OOB's and victory conditions and concentrate on the mechanics. Besides, since it is the first scenario it is surely the one that is the most familiar to all who have pleyed SL!

I had some trouble with the map too. In addition to the road intersections I had trouble with the orientation of some of the factory buildings. They run diagonally on the SL mapboard, but factories and contiguous large buildings seem to want to be square to the map edges in the editor. I solved this problem by deciding that this was an adaptation and not a direct translation.

I didn't have the trouble that you did with the extra officers. My OOB is pretty close and the placement follows the scenario. I did discover that you could drive yourself nuts tweaking all of the unit parameters! Should this leader have one heart or two? I also now appreciate the effort it takes to crater a map, especially with the itsy bitsy ones. If I never do another scenario I have at least tasted the work required to produce one. It builds appreciation.

Anyway, I would love to see your take on it. I am currently playing mine PBEM with one of my usual opponents and have foisted it unsolicited upon another to play as the Russians against the AI. So please send me yours, my email address is in my profile.

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Its on its way to you now. I decided to do all 3 scenarios at once because I wanted to see if I could do the entire board. It turned out pretty good, though like you, I had the problem with building orientation. I am confident I can do any of the boards now, though there will be differences that we will have to live with.

There was also the problem of not having single story buildings you could add together like the 2 story ones in CMBB. So I had to make do with the 2 story ones, changing the orginal scenarios' ingame LOS challenge somewhat. I also figured that 4 tiles represented a hex in the ASL boards. A tile is 20 meters, a hex was 40.

I also noticed that the time scale is different. In ASL a turn was 2 minutes while in CMBB it is of course one. I didnt discover this until I had played the scenario twice. I had originally thought ASL was 1 minute also. It had played out very well with not doubleing the number of turns. So I modified the shorter time adding a few more turns, not just doubleing the number, and relying on the dynamic game ending to take care of the rest.

If anyone else would like to try it, please let me know. Thanks CaSca. smile.gif

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Originally posted by Martin Rapier:

Ah, Steve will release them today, sorry guys I thought they were already out.

No problem, I had another look and found Breakout from Borisov & Bobruisk anyway - great looking scenarios and both have an interesting treatment of SL board 1.

Cheers

Martin

Where did you find them? I looked all over the Depot, even searched, Nada.

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My set of conversions are all titled "

SL # - {title}". They should be available at the Depot.

Also, the briefings containa a description of my conversion process if you want some pointers on how I did it. Send me an email if I can be of assistance.

Steve

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I just had to resurrect this old thread. Now that the Scenario Depot is out of commission for a while, can anyone email me the ASL and SL scenarios that have been converted for any and all of the CM games? It would be greatly appreciated. Also, any Market Garden scenarios for CMAK if anyone has them. Thanks in advance.

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Originally posted by NG cavscout:

I just had to resurrect this old thread. Now that the Scenario Depot is out of commission for a while, can anyone email me the ASL and SL scenarios that have been converted for any and all of the CM games? It would be greatly appreciated. Also, any Market Garden scenarios for CMAK if anyone has them. Thanks in advance.

A new game designer at The Proving Grounds has started doing a lot of CMAK ASL conversions.

Look for Risingsun360's scenarios. That should give you a place to start on a fresh batch of conversions.

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