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So in the Disappointment thread, an image of a massive map spanning 15x19km was shown. The idea was brought up that it could be done. So why don't we, as a community, undertake a challenge like this? We can choose a historic location, one that offers diversity in terrain, and plot it out in sections.

I know how to work with overlays, and pretty much everything except elevation and flavor items (Don't use them much). 

So why don't we toss some ideas of places we would be interested to see covered. And note: This map should be compatible with the titles in CMx2. They can be converted with a very special community tool which will be used when the time comes. :)

Ideas:

Grozny, Donbass area, USA, Mogadishu, parts of Russia- and this is for CMBS so far. 

So what do you guys think? 

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Artkin said:

So why don't we toss some ideas of places we would be interested to see covered. And note: This map should be compatible with the titles in CMx2. They can be converted with a very special community tool which will be used when the time comes. :)

 

Map making is labor intensive so you'd have to define this a little better.  What is CM2 compatible?  There is no such things as importing a map.  It has to be made in CM so that map you are referring to is as good as any for making overlays.  So in essence all you can do now is define a map to be the focus of a campaign and therefore done in CM as individual maps which is a process folks have already done many times.  The issue isn't usually the maps, it is the campaign system that guides the Op layer of movement and opportunity that is the main impediment.  

As early as the 1st release of CMBN - LLF and Broadsword were both building maps to cover the frontage around St Lo and Broadsword and I did a campaign based on the St Lo boardgame (see my sig..)  Not sure what your suggestion is different than that.

Edited by sburke

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Posted (edited)

CM2 compatible.. dont be like the Arnhem master map.. It wont convert from CMBN to CMBS due to some reason. So it'd be impossible to know, but try to avoid a similar fate. This could be by not using flavor items until the very last step - and saving two different versions. One with one without flavor items. I think they are the culprit. 

I never mentioned converting.. as in from another game or whatnot. Of course the map would be made in CM. Right now I am modeling Yerkinkala region Kazakhstan since I've been so bored. 

I don't understand what you mean by the second half of the first paragraph and the entire second paragraph. The process seems really simple to me. :unsure: I'm not looking to make this into any game mode quite yet. I just want to start work on something. The more team members that dedicate time, the less sq km for me. :)

I just want to get a large region covered and have serious master maps churned out. But I will certainly check that map out. 

Similar to your map, this is what I was doing.

https://ibb.co/jkekKo ~ insert other media not working... 

Edited by Artkin

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Yeah seems the website did an update.  It was inaccessible to me for a few minutes.  So if I get you right you'd want to take for example that 15x19km map, divide it in sections and make Master maps correct.

Just for the moment I am assuming you are there is one issue and Broadsword and I found this fairly early.  You never know until you launch the campaign what maps you'll need.  So for our St Lo campaign the game map covered.11 x 7 km I think at least for the area covered by the fighting.  Now keep in mind this was CM x2 1.0 when map limitations were even more severe.  We quickly realized that making maps to cover 77 sq kms when we didn't actually know where the battlers would be fought made no sense so we instead used the game map as an op layer and when a battle came up that looked worth our effort a map was then produced and the battle fought and the results applied to the op layer.  Pretty much the same technique as everyone else has done.  No one has considered mapping the entire area and then playing it as you don't know the boundaries of the fight.  Suppose your battle is on the edges of two master maps - you now have to create a new map that covers areas on those two maps.

A lot of us have been down this road.  Again making maps is labor intensive and rarely is anyone interested in making one that is not defined to actually have a battle on it.  I may be the exception :D  I sometimes make maps just to see what it might look like to stand on that battlefield.

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Yup saw that. 

The unfortunate thing about the modern titles is the lack of master maps. CMBN had amazing maps that spanned a lot of territory. It'd be easier to use those maps on a board like on FGM (Which looks f'in sweet!!!!!!). The ultimate downside is they can't be ported out of CMBN. 

At least for now I can build my own map or edit another. Which I am doing both as of right now. :). I am expanding Donetsk airport South 1300m and retracting it west 500m so it sits at 4x4 km.

Well, a 4x4km map is 16 square km.. split that between four guys it can be done. Especially in areas with a lot of fields or houses. I figure elevation takes the longest amount of time. 

So yeah. I'm gonna try some Ukraine as well. That will probably fit CMBS better than Kazakhstan. :D

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I did one totally fictional location in CMBS called Ukrainian Crossroads that is 4 x 4.5.   Elevation is not bad especially if you have a decent overlay with elevation lines.

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I just cant get it to work. I try direct, bump up the elevation with +.. click a few circles at a higher elevation like 13 or 15 than the rest of the map (Which was set at 10 with adjust all), and the friggin points set the whole map to 15!!

 

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Posted (edited)

You have to set specific to start with or it will auto contour to match. For example if you start a new map and select one AS and set it to 50 everything else will become 15 to match. 

The elevation tool is quite easy to use, getting the contours you want may be a little harder.  I’d suggest playing around in it for a bit just messing with elevations alone and for God’s sake don’t add any water to your map until you are ready to tackle that.  

Edited by sburke

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Posted (edited)

That's quite alright. I sure dont mind painting another 5 kilometers of river again......

I guess I'll just screw with it. But that doesnt mean my lazy ass isnt asking for people to join in on the fun :)

Edited by Artkin

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Posted (edited)

This is how far I've gotten on Donetsk. Sheesh this is a lot of work. I plan on modeling it as exact as I can. This place is 10x more brutal than previously modeled. All credit will go to original author after I change 90% of the map = )

Everything North of the airstrip is done. The south side of it is pretty dense. Feels like Fallujah. Buildings super tightly packed, tall, lots of windows. High walls surrounding just about every house. I am very excited. 

alotofwork.png

And this is the overlay I'm using. 

alotofwork2.png

The houses are remnants of the previous author's work. They will soon be deleted and replaced with 2-3x the density. :P

First thing to accomplish is roadwork. Then the elevations. Following the manual included with CMBS. 

 

Edited by Artkin

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Posted (edited)

I'm making progress on the town, chipping away at more houses, small barns, and fences. A lot of this stuff I half-assed. Houses and inner fences primarily since they're difficult to see .

Alotofwork3.png

Alotofwork4.png

Alotofwork5.png

Also in image one, take note of the absolutely massive empty void... :o

Edited by Artkin

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6 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Tracking well by the looks of it.

Thank you, I appreciate that!

On 6/26/2018 at 1:52 AM, sburke said:

I did one totally fictional location in CMBS called Ukrainian Crossroads that is 4 x 4.5.   Elevation is not bad especially if you have a decent overlay with elevation lines.

Sorry about pretty much disregarding this. I forgot to say that I had crossed over this a couple times but never looked into it enough to see the size. I've been on a couple scenariodepot map runs since I've gotten CM and I usually look for a blatant HUGE MAP :P.

I downloaded it and I'll give it a try. Honestly I haven't let myself play any CM yet though. 

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1 minute ago, Artkin said:

I downloaded it and I'll give it a try. Honestly I haven't let myself play any CM yet though. 

Whhhaaaaattt???!!!  Just kidding.  I think there are a few people who play it very little.  Instead mostly using it as a 3D modelling tool.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, sburke said:

Whhhaaaaattt???!!!  Just kidding.  I think there are a few people who play it very little.  Instead mostly using it as a 3D modelling tool.

I had meant I haven't played since I've started this project. I cant put these friggin games down :D

I can certainly see it being used that way. I have a lot of fun in the editor. Sort of how your brain releases more happy stuff before you spark up than after. I have a ton of fun in the editor and then when I play battles I decide I want to change it and do Grozny now etc etc. Love it. 

Edited by Artkin

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It's also fun to see how different people approach different terrain by popping open random maps. Or testing things on a small map, then applying those lessons on the larger map. That saves a lot of grief.

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Well this sort of baptism by fire is fun so far.. for the next release I will certainly have to learn other tricks in the editor.. since this map was already released with topography, and a general layout to work around. Starting from scratch will be far different :D

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Making historical maps is somewhat challenging, but fun. Fictional is another way to go when you are figuring out how to make certain areas look good and offer game play opportunities (a gentle rise in a hill, etc). I do those (generally ending up as QB maps) when I get tired of doing the historical stuff.

Welcome to the new world of "I need this book for research". Which becomes piles of interesting, wildly specific books.

My own particular order of research (project dependent)- contemporary maps and photographs, personal experience (you have walked the area personally), then to personal contemporary accounts from books, modern day Google Earth and this tool to fill in any mysteries.

I do mainly WW2 stuff, so obviously if the battle is in CMBS, there may be more actual footage of the battle unfolding (chaotic and first person-based as that may be, it can still be informative as to the state of the terrain). This is also true for WW2 stuff, but the chance of finding footage actually from the battle is far more slim.

If I could give myself some advice when I first started with the Editor, I'd say approach things in the following order (will differ, depending on person!):
 

1. Research, accumulate as much information and imagery as possible to understand the action depicted, and the terrain itself.

2. Figure out the map sizing based upon one of the images (from a source like a map or an aerial image). What the purpose of the map is will help determine this as far as sizing. I generally do huge maps, but if you are doing something small/medium, consider adding some "extra" for maneuver if appropriate.

3. Create Editor Overlay(s). I might end up with 5-6 for one map, but that is serious overkill for most projects. I use Photoshop, and will have Layers for every source. Generally any period maps (in their own Layers), any aerial imagery from the period depicted, and then a GE image for any areas that may need clarification. Some of these I mark up if needed for ease of organization. One note- I may consider rotating the map to keep roadways at the correct angle for CM roads. That will save some serious agony later.

4. Create the blank map, sized to the area depicted.

5. Sketch the roads out. I adapt slightly to avoid "see-saw" roads and fences, etc. This is my one general concession to the Game. Engine. As long as you don't deviate too far, things should line up pretty closely with any map you have. If you rotated themap slightly, the road issue should be as minimized as possible given the tools.

6. Next I do heights based upon the heightmap Editor Overlay. I adjust slightly around roads, and often raise them in rural areas by 1. Railways get a bump of 2 sometimes if shown as "raised" on the source map. Check 3D view often, and adjust as needed. This can be time-consuming, but the work pays off if you put it in.

7. Sketch out any fields, forests, swamps or other large swaths of terrain. I have started using one tile of "Dirt" around fields. It seems to look realistic, and also allows me to sketch the fields out, then fill them in and plan it out a bit beforehand. This where you have to start mixing the historical with the creative stuff a bit. The fun stuff.

8. Trees in forests. I use a large mix, depending on the region. Look at GE Street View, and just observe nature to see how a forest grows. Generally smaller scrub, then the larger stuff. But some pine forests start more abruptly. I'm lucky to know a few forestry people, so I ask them weird questions based upon regional growth from time to time. You may find yourself on some obscure Estonian forestry website before you know it.

I only do the areas that I have sketched out with Light Woods or Heavy Woods. Don't feel you have to fill in EVERY tile with a tree. I often mix in tree-less tiles in forested areas with Dirt, Tall Yellow Grass and Red Rocky Ground (and others as needed based upon look and region)

9. Start dropping houses. Google Earth Street View and contemporary images will be helpful here. For CMFB, I think I traveled Stavelot, Noville and the other maps that I am forgetting now in Street View a million times. Along with looking at as many images of particular street corners in towns, etc to see HOW it looked as possible.

10. The final details. Put up fences, trees in areas where they grow in non-Woods terrain (around houses, etc)

11. 3D view. Look for problems. You should be doing this quite often during the entire process to be sure you are on track with making it look "right".

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Posted (edited)

As you proceed, these may be helpful sources in no particular order (I'll add more when I'm at my Home Base).

 

1. Using GE eye level on the ground also helps give a basic understanding of LoS and the "lay of the land". You have this one wrapped up.

 

2. Combatintman found this topo tool, if you missed it in the other thread:

http://contourmapcreator.urgr8.ch/

This tool is a huge help (especially for complex terrain), but should be used with any other sources you can find

 

3. I subscribe yearly to the NCAP, which houses a massive trove of aerial images made by RAF Reconnaissance flights. This is my "go to" for period overlays (sometimes overlaid with GE images, and maybe other sources like period maps- using as many sources as possible). Good for Overlays. Link:

https://ncap.org.uk/

 

4. Perry-Castaneda Map Library- a decent source for a wide range of map regions. Just be sure to check the scale is useful (see here for explanation of what these look like: http://www.compassdude.com/map-scales.php). Around 1:24,000 is my general target size. Lower is great, but so rare for that one region you seek that you may as well see a unicorn later in the day.

 

5. Mapster- A good source for maps of Poland, eastern Germany and NW Russia/SU (and maybe a little Baltic areas as well, can't recall)

http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=GR100

 

6. Geoportail- Maps of France. There may be a historical overlay baked in to the site, haven't used it since CMMG, though!

https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/carte/

 

7. BYU Library- 1:25,000 Maps of Germany

https://lib.byu.edu/collections/german-maps/

 

8. Old Maps Online- Just like the title says. More general, but you can find some fill-in-the-gaps stuff here:

http://www.oldmapsonline.org/

 

9. My personal favorite- Old Hapsburg era to ww2 era maps with a sychronized view (for comparing two maps!):

https://mapire.eu/en/synchron/europe-19century-secondsurvey/?bbox=-1772192.4014695496%2C4866535.559953655%2C4440609.257549576%2C7801717.446104423&layers=osm%2C158%2C164&right-layers=osm

 

10. A good source for a variety of WW2 aerial imagery and maps:

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/new_home_page_-_071216_002.htm

 

More than a few dead links as well, sadly. I see the great source a few of us used for MG for Dutch maps is now dead (http://erfgoedenlocatie.nl/resultaten/watwaswaar/#cC-Om-6-1-1v-1), but they have transferred the collection (instructions in Dutch, needs to be investigated further now..).

 

Edited by benpark

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