Role of the Baltic States

[LUCASWILLEN05]

They can call it whatever they want

 

Actually I was suprised by the numbers.

25 millions sounds like nonsense

Numbersare often disputed. A typical example of national bias. Russia might downplay the numbers, ukraine might inflate them. If we were to pick a figure between the two claimsthat might be more accurae.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

By your history their are two countries on that list that should concern you. However, it's understandable and completely believable to me that their are people in the East who are attracted to the west and want to distance themselves from the Russians. 

 

 Every time someone here in America points out Russia's moves in Ukraine as unlawful acts of wanton aggression I almost want to start laughing. We have short-term memory in this country it seems. On top of that the perspective is just wrong. Russia does not view Ukraine as a legitimate sovereign nation anymore than the Union saw the Confederacy as one. If Texas left the US right now, how would Americans feel about that? How would they feel if other powers demanded they leave Texas alone?

I would agree. The Baltic States might certainly have cause to feel thretened by Russ. Russia occupied the Baltic Staes incrporating them int the Tsaris Empiire, then in 1940 and finlly in 1944 having "liberated" them from the German occupation. AAnother example of why Russia's neighbours might be cncerned about Russian regional ambitions as they would percieve it.Russia and the West (United States) also regard actions by the other side in a very negative way given the attitude of mutual fear and paranoia.

[Alexey K]

Numbersare often disputed. A typical example of national bias. Russia might downplay the numbers, ukraine might inflate them. If we were to pick a figure between the two claimsthat might be more accurae.

 

That's the point.

Ukranians are expected to inflate them, but they say 3.9 millions, not 25

[LUCASWILLEN05]

That's the point.

Ukranians are expected to inflate them, but they say 3.9 millions, not 25

 Shall we just agree all sides have reason to be fearful and indeed even paranoid for a range of historical reasons going back over at least he las few hundred years and take it from there

[Erik Springelkamp]

 Shall we just agree all sides have reason to be fearful and indeed even paranoid for a range of historical reasons going back over at least he las few hundred years and take it from there

 

You may retract your number of 25 million, especially after having compared Alexey with holocaust deniers. That was really impolite.

[Vet 0369]

You may retract your number of 25 million, especially after having compared Alexey with holocaust deniers. That was really impolite.

The 25 million number was not from the OP. I misremembered that number from U.S. Public Broadcasting System documentary. It seems from this http://www.conservapedia.com/Ukrainian_genocide that the number was "only" around 11 million across the Soviet Union, including 6.5 million Ukraines and 3 million children. Russia still refuses to acknowledge it. I don't know how reliable the referenced site is, but they do include references to the condemnations of many countries and individuals. The time frame was 1932 to 1937. It may be one of the root reasons why the Baltic States are concerned about Russia. I seriously doubt that it is taught as part of history in Russia, so I'd be reluctant to label anyone as a "denier."

[Vet 0369]

Regarding CaptainHawkeye's question about our response to insurrection in Texas, we're talking about decisions made about 150 to 170 years ago. Texas actually seceded from the Union during the U.S. Civil War and lost. I have read that the primary reason Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation was to prevent Great Britain from entering the war on the side of the Confederacy, as they were about to do.

Allies and enemies change constantly depending on the circumstances and are rarely static. The question here is the reaction of the Balitc States and NATO in game terms. Let's all pray that those decisions are never necessary in real life.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

You may retract your number of 25 million, especially after having compared Alexey with holocaust deniers. That was really impolite.

 

Erik, I did not qoute that figure,

[Erik Springelkamp]

Erik, I did not qoute that figure,

 

Then I apologise.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Then I apologise.

 

No worries. Sometimes it is easy to mis-read

[Sublime]

50 million russian dead? Source pls. That figure seems grossly inflated, funny how the ww2 ost front soviet body.count seems to grow by ten million every decade wtf is that?

[LUCASWILLEN05]

50 million russian dead? Source pls. That figure seems grossly inflated, funny how the ww2 ost front soviet body.count seems to grow by ten million every decade wtf is that?

 

that might be dead and wounded. both military and civillian

 

http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm

[Sublime]

Even then the most often cited sources i.ve read put it at 20-30 million civilian and military. I.ve never heard the count goto 50 mil.

[Sublime]

Note the link u shared pegs soviet union with ten mil and ten mil

[LUCASWILLEN05]

That's the point.

Ukranians are expected to inflate them, but they say 3.9 millions, not 25

 

Russians have not disclosed everything about their military history in WW2 wth many battles and campaigns not disclosed at all for decades. And thei accunt of Prokhorovka given at the time and relied on for decades afterwards has quite recentl been shown up to be, shall we say, smewhat frudulant wih Sovet losses under stated.  German losses heavily inflated including Panthers (which II SS Panzer Corps did not have at the time and more Tigers than hey had engaged or even started with. An illustration of how numbers be manipulate and used for political reasons 

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Note the link u shared pegs soviet union with ten mil and ten mil

 

Correct. If 20 million dead then 30million wounded seems a reasonble figure. Hence 50 million dead and wounded could be a fair figure.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

S, Ivanov qoutes 46 million, Boris Sokolv 43 milliion which come pretty close http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union

[sburke]

Russia does not view Ukraine as a legitimate sovereign nation anymore than the Union saw the Confederacy as one. If Texas left the US right now, how would Americans feel about that? How would they feel if other powers demanded they leave Texas alone?

Do you mind elaborating on that as it doesn't make any sense in the context of anything Russia has said nor in any of the treaty's it has signed. I am genuinely not sure if I am just misunderstanding what you are driving at or not and figure I should first know that before responding.

[Melchior]

Do you mind elaborating on that as it doesn't make any sense in the context of anything Russia has said nor in any of the treaty's it has signed. I am genuinely not sure if I am just misunderstanding what you are driving at or not and figure I should first know that before responding.

 

Despite what politics are compelling Russia's leaders to say or claim Russian leaders and many people in Russia do not really believe the post USSR successor states had any right to leave (or abandon if you want) Russia when the wall fell. Ukraine, as Georgia and others before it, is perceived as an internal affair. IE: It's not fair game for the west to take interest in. It's not their house. 

[Apocal]

By your history their are two countries on that list that should concern you. However, it's understandable and completely believable to me that their are people in the East who are attracted to the west and want to distance themselves from the Russians. 

 

 Every time someone here in America points out Russia's moves in Ukraine as unlawful acts of wanton aggression I almost want to start laughing. We have short-term memory in this country it seems. On top of that the perspective is just wrong. Russia does not view Ukraine as a legitimate sovereign nation anymore than the Union saw the Confederacy as one. If Texas left the US right now, how would Americans feel about that? How would they feel if other powers demanded they leave Texas alone?

 

I hope you're not suggesting the breakup of the Soviet Union was forced on them.

[Melchior]

Absolutely not. I think their are important lessons we can learn from it too. Like how compulsive reliance on an inflexible economic system, and worship of state mythology over solving social dilemmas can both slowly undermine and weaken nations in the long run. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[sburke]

Despite what politics are compelling Russia's leaders to say or claim Russian leaders and many people in Russia do not really believe the post USSR successor states had any right to leave (or abandon if you want) Russia when the wall fell. Ukraine, as Georgia and others before it, is perceived as an internal affair. IE: It's not fair game for the west to take interest in. It's not their house. 

Okay then so your whole comparison to Texas is wrong.    You have completely mis characterized the dissolution of the USSR.  If you had said that Congress had voted to dissolve the Union and that Texas had along with other states signed the document declaring that dissolution and the various states of the United States established their own institutions to replace the authority of the federal gov't that would have been a closer comparison.  Russia was a signatory to the treaty dissolving the Soviet Union.  Russians don't like that?  umm too bad.  They don't get to call a mulligan 23 years later.

 

 

 

 

USSR

On June 12, 1990, the Congress of People's Deputies adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty. On June 12, 1991, Boris Yeltsin was elected the first President. On December 8, 1991, heads of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus signed the Belavezha Accords. The agreement declared dissolution of the USSR by its founder states (i.e. denunciation of 1922 Treaty on the Creation of the USSR) and established the CIS. On December 12, the agreement was ratified by the Russian Parliament, therefore Russian SFSR denounced the Treaty on the Creation of the USSR and de facto declared Russia's independence from the USSR.

On December 25, 1991, the Russian SFSR was renamed the Russian Federation (Russia). On December 26, 1991, the USSR was self-dissolved by the Council of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, which by that time was the only functioning house of Soviet parliament (the other house, Soviet of the Union, had already lost the quorum after recall of its members by the union republics). After dissolution of the USSR, Russia declared that it assumed the rights and obligations of the dissolved central Soviet government, including UN membership.

The new Russian constitution, adopted on December 12, 1993 after a constitutional crisis, abolished the Soviet system of government in its entirety.

Ukraine

Independence

Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk and President of the Russian Federation Boris Yeltsin signed the Belavezha Accords, dissolving the Soviet Union, 8 December 1991

On 16 July 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine. This established the principles of the self-determination, democracy, independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law over Soviet law. A month earlier, a similar declaration was adopted by the parliament of the Russian SFSR. This started a period of confrontation with the central Soviet authorities. In August 1991, a conservative faction among the Communist leaders of the Soviet Union attempted a coup to remove Mikhail Gorbachev and to restore the Communist party's power. After it failed, on 24 August 1991 the Ukrainian parliament adopted the Act of Independence.

A referendum and the first presidential elections took place on 1 December 1991. More than 90% of the electorate expressed their support for the Act of Independence, and they elected the chairman of the parliament, Leonid Kravchuk as the first President of Ukraine. At the meeting in Brest, Belarus on 8 December, followed by the Alma Ata meeting on 21 December, the leaders of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine formally dissolved the Soviet Union and formed the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS).

[LUCASWILLEN05]

So we might say that the breakup of the Soviet Union was forced on them by the circumstances of the time. If we added the word "Discuss" that would look like a History graduate essay question

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Anyway, getting back to the Baltics http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31759558

[Erik Springelkamp]

This video probably expresses a popular sentiment in Russia:

Я Русский Оккупант | I'm a Russian Occupant

 

(in the options you can turn on English subtitles)

Edited March 6, 2015 by Erik Springelkamp