TRP and mortars

[Hilts]

Can mortars direct fire on or in the vicinity of a TRP if they do not have a LOS to it? If so, up to what radius from the TRP is possible?

[Statisoris]

TRP's do not allow mortars and other on map artillery pieces to direct fire into the TRP area without LOS to the target spot. HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas.

TRP's affect a circular area within a radius of 50 meters from TRP center point.

TRP's DO affect direct fire if there is LOS to the circular area. They will increase the accuracy of fire of any unit into that circular area.

[Hilts]

TRP's do not allow mortars and other on map artillery pieces to direct fire into the TRP area without LOS to the target spot. HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas.

TRP's affect a circular area within a radius of 50 meters from TRP center point.

TRP's DO affect direct fire if there is LOS to the circular area. They will increase the accuracy of fire of any unit into that circular area.

Thanks, mate!

[Erwin]

"HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas."

Do you mean FO's do NOT have to have LOS to use a TRP?

I was surprised that you say that even HQ's do have to have LOS since I thought the whole point of a TRP is that it has been pre-registered for arty fire, so nobody has to have LOS to indirect fire at a TRP. (It was that way in CM1 for offboard arty/FO's and for onboard mortars that had not moved since the start of the scenario, and I thought that was supposedly realistic, no?)

[akd]

No he just means the mission has to be called by a spotter, whether an HQ or FO.

[Erwin]

That still begs the question of why does one have to have LOS to a preregistered strike site for indirect fire.

So, in CMBN even if you have not moved your onmap mortars since the start of the scenario (other than the setup phase), they or an HQ/FO still has to have LOS to a TRP? Hope we have an Arty expert here who can explain why that would be.

[YankeeDog]

That still begs the question of why does one have to have LOS to a preregistered strike site for indirect fire.

So, in CMBN even if you have not moved your onmap mortars since the start of the scenario (other than the setup phase), they or an HQ/FO still has to have LOS to a TRP? Hope we have an Arty expert here who can explain why that would be.

I don't think you really need an "Arty Expert" for an answer to this one...

This is conjecture on my part, but I assume BFC did this to model the idea that, even if the target area is pre-registered, *someone* needs to have observation to the target area, and communication with the mortar, in order tell the mortar to initiate fire at the right time.

IOW, this is a design choice to limit the inherent unrealism of the "Player as God" problem; a problem that can never be completely eliminated in a computer game like CM, but can at least be moderated by good game design.

[Hilts]

I don't think you really need an "Arty Expert" for an answer to this one...

This is conjecture on my part, but I assume BFC did this to model the idea that, even if the target area is pre-registered, *someone* needs to have observation to the target area, and communication with the mortar, in order tell the mortar to initiate fire at the right time.

IOW, this is a design choice to limit the inherent unrealism of the "Player as God" problem; a problem that can never be completely eliminated in a computer game like CM, but can at least be moderated by good game design.

This is a very valid point and I agree with it. If neither the mortar nor anyone within shouting distance can see the TRP then it would be unrealistic for the mortar to suddenly start pounding the TRP when enemy troops appear. I'm all in favour of making the game as realistic as possible.

[Statisoris]

Back to clear confusion. How could you see troops appear if you don't have los to the target area? If you play low difficulty with enemy troops always on I guess that is possible.

Artillery and air support missions can be plotted on TRP areas at any time during the game WITHOUT LOS to the TRP target spot. So for example you can order a mission deep into some thick forest with no LOS as long as you are firing unto thine TRP.

[akd]

That still begs the question of why does one have to have LOS to a preregistered strike site for indirect fire.

So, in CMBN even if you have not moved your onmap mortars since the start of the scenario (other than the setup phase), they or an HQ/FO still has to have LOS to a TRP? Hope we have an Arty expert here who can explain why that would be.

I don't know where you are getting this. The spotter does not have to have LOS to the TRP.

[Erwin]

akd: This was the post from Statisoris that confused me: "TRP's do not allow mortars and other on map artillery pieces to direct fire into the TRP area without LOS to the target spot. HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas."

As you can see from several of the following posts, the feeling is that someone who can communicate to the arty MUST have LOS to the TRP to know there is a target there to shoot at.

I continue to be confused as to which it is...

[stikkypixie]

akd: This was the post from Statisoris that confused me: "TRP's do not allow mortars and other on map artillery pieces to direct fire into the TRP area without LOS to the target spot. HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas."

As you can see from several of the following posts, the feeling is that someone who can communicate to the arty MUST have LOS to the TRP to know there is a target there to shoot at.

I continue to be confused as to which it is...

You don't need LOS to the TRP. Say you want to call a circular fire mission, as long as the TRP is 50m from the centre of the target the TRP will have an effect. You can see this when looking at the details of the fire mission. TRP don't change any "rules" about the fire mission regarding LOS, they only enhance the accuracy and I believe also eliminates the need for spotting rounds.

[G. Smiley]

akd: This was the post from Statisoris that confused me: "TRP's do not allow mortars and other on map artillery pieces to direct fire into the TRP area without LOS to the target spot. HQ units will still need to plot artillery missions into no LOS/LOF TRP areas."

As you can see from several of the following posts, the feeling is that someone who can communicate to the arty MUST have LOS to the TRP to know there is a target there to shoot at.

I continue to be confused as to which it is...

Key word in your quoted sentence: "to direct fire". Direct fire as in contrast to indirect fire...

[Hilts]

Back to clear confusion. How could you see troops appear if you don't have los to the target area? If you play low difficulty with enemy troops always on I guess that is possible.

I meant that other friendly units may have LOS to the TRP but not be in communication with the mortars. Therefore the enemy appearing at the TRP would still be evident even in Iron skill level mode, though not to the mortars. For the mortars to suddenly start bombarding the TRP on this evidence without being in communication would be unrealistic and as I have found out in this post, thankfully forbidden.

[Statisoris]

You don't need LOS to the TRP. Say you want to call a circular fire mission, as long as the TRP is 50m from the centre of the target the TRP will have an effect. You can see this when looking at the details of the fire mission. TRP don't change any "rules" about the fire mission regarding LOS, they only enhance the accuracy and I believe also eliminates the need for spotting rounds.

The affects of TRP's on artillery and air support are as follows

1) No LOS required to plot an artillery and/or air support mission. (Only one "mission plot point" needs to be within the TRP area. So you can plot a line with one end in the TRP area and one end out of the TRP area to gain the TRP effects. !NOTE! If you want TRP effects, the first plotted point MUST be within TRP area. If you plot the 1st "mission point" out of TRP area and then plot 2nd point within TRP area, there will be NO TRP effects (does not apply to "Point" type missions)

2) Correct Stikkypixie, TRPs eliminate spotting rounds. !NOTE! there is a drawback to this. You cannot adjust fire until the mission is firing full force. This can be bad if you do not have artillery to waste, as you have to wait for the mission to adjust while firing at a standard rate, not just spotting rate.

3) Call in time for all missions based on TRPs are shorter. Experience/Leadership rating for spotter is still a factor, longer for lower experience/lower leadership ratings.

4) Correct Stikkypixie, TRPs enhance the accuracy of indirect as well as direct fire.