Holien Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Byte De Ville produced some odd results for German tanks and I am trying to get to the bottom of why. If you are not aware of the map it has in effect a field surrounded by high Bocage with two gaps large enough for vehicles to pass. This is where the Germans forces can come on with a protected LOS to the American set up area. This situation happened with all three tanks twice with the Stug, Twice with a Green MKIV and 4 times with a Regular MKIV. Basically I moved the tank upto the edge of the bocage with great LOS to an American Tank (Sherman 76mm and a Sherman 75mm). My thought was that I would get drop with first shot and I hope kill. This would IMO be an unfair situation for the Americans as they had to sit out in open and the Germans get the bocage to hide behind. The Stug a Vet crew with no bonus and Rattled (due to global morale levels) fired at some American inf running across street and when it finally spotted the Sherman it reversed without firing at the tank!! The second time it did this it got whacked in side by another Sherman as it crossed an open gap side on. It reversed around 70m!! Meanwhile on the other bocage line during the course of the game the exact same thing happened with the two MKIV's who had LOS to the 76mm Sherman. These MKIVs were a Reg Crew at -2 skill and just rattled while the Green crew was +1 skill and +1 Rattled. Again they pulled back I guess around 70m after spotting the Sherman without even firing a shot!!! Is this all down to them being rattled? Does this mean that when a Tank becomes rattled it will not bother to engage another tank? All very odd and my kind opponent called an end to the game, but in effect I had lost the will to fight due to global morale? The tanks had not seen much action and had not even engaged the Shermans at any stage as I was trying to use the bocage as cover to sneak a shot on the exposed Shermans... Any views or similar problems? Is this a correct analysis or am I missing something? H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Hard to say for sure, but I think it's a pretty good guess that you're seeing the effects of the "Rattled" state. In my experience, Rattled AFV crews are very reluctant to engage anything that could potentially shoot back at them. If you're careful with them, they're still somewhat useful dumping HE and MG fire on distant enemy infantry and other targets that can't effectively shoot back at them. But otherwise, Rattled crews are pretty jittery and basically look for an excuse to disengage and retreat. Rattled infantry are similar; they're not totally worthless as they'll still output fire as long as they're not being threatened, but you have to be very careful because even a modest amount of incoming fire will immediately Panic them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 Hmmm then should the global morale affect tank crews as well? I guess there is no definite answer on that but would there be some argument if units belong to different formations they should not be affected by a global morale? I guess maybe not... Anyway something for players and designers to be aware of. The morale of my forces was hit by loss of HQ's trying to spot for German Mortars and maybe if I had kept them back the level might not have fallen... If it was down to global morale and rattled tanks are pretty useless for engaging tanks then it does mean for a short game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 As this is not gathering any feedback other that the kind views of Yankeedog I want to expand the thoughts at how easy it is to transfer the morale settings. I have just had a situation where a sniper team some considerable distance to his HQ and not in touch has gone from good to rattled as his HQ has died. This supernatural power I guess is just the team feeling the shift in the force a bit like a Jedi.... Also I am not sure that Tanks when going to Rattled should just retreat and not fire... Surely one shot before pulling back? Rattled for tanks is in effect a death knell as they do not engage other tanks. Has anyone else seen that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 <snip>Also I am not sure that Tanks when going to Rattled should just retreat and not fire... Surely one shot before pulling back? Rattled for tanks is in effect a death knell as they do not engage other tanks. Has anyone else seen that? I have a recent experience where a group of rattled Shermans (three) were hunting a stug. This was in a highly built up area with lots of alleyways and restricted LOS. There was a shrek team floating around too. Shortly after the stug took out one of the Shermans another turned a corner and found itself less than 100m *behind* the stug. I was horrified to see that instead of taking it out it started reversing. Lucky for me that was towards the end of the turn and I was able to cancel the reverse around the corner and the pop smoke orders. I gave the tank a target order and the next turn they fired and took out the stug with one shot. So, this is in line with what was mentioned before: Rattled is not useless but they are skittish and self preservation is top of their to do list. In my case I was able to cancel their scaredy cat plans and give them a better option. In your case that will be difficult because when they get up to the bocage they will see the thing that scares them and reverse. Once they reverse they will not be able to fire at the other tank. I would suspect it will be harder to give them an alternative to running away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I would suspect it will be harder to give them an alternative to running away. BFC please give us the Courtmartial button It will be much easier as Soviet on the eastern front - just get a NKVD blocking detachment ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Thxs Ian. I guess if I could have given a target order that might have helped. As you have noted they lost sight as soon as they reversed so I was in same game advance spot and retreat... Ohh well it has happened once so maybe just a one off... (for three tanks in same game...) IRL perhaps the whole unit would have retreated off the board. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 BFC please give us the Courtmartial button LOL there certainly have been times where I wanted that command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 IRL perhaps the whole unit would have retreated off the board. Perhaps, backing off and living to fight another day is not something us game commanders are very good at:) I do like how troops respond to combat situations, how it starts to get harder and harder to get troops to do what you want. I am not sure if it *is* right but it *feels* right. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 It's to do with the retardedly broken morale model and happened frequently in the previous series of games too. I had a game where a Sherman retreated uncontrollably each turn from a LIGHT MORTAR. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 It's to do with the retardedly broken morale model and happened frequently in the previous series of games too. I had a game where a Sherman retreated uncontrollably each turn from a LIGHT MORTAR. Or maybe it's to do with the retardedly broken way people handle the morale model. If your global morale is so shafted your tanks are Rattled, then you've taken a heck of a beating already. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 see the results of my testing in the Hitpoints on Subsystems thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Or maybe it's to do with the retardedly broken way people handle the morale model. If your global morale is so shafted your tanks are Rattled, then you've taken a heck of a beating already. ...except I won the battle handily, even with tanks fleeing from light mortars. ...and tanks would routinely flee for no apparent reason in the previous series, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I love the unpredictability of this behavior and I think it's entirely realistic. WWII accounts are full of stories about how tanks would advance, covering the infantry, a tank or two gets brewed up, and suddenly the entire tank force is pulling back, to the dismay of the infantrymen. The tankers in their accounts blame the infantrymen for going to ground prematurely and failing to flush out the panzerfausts and AT crews in their path. I'm OK if things like global morale become options that some players can switch off when they want total control over what the units do to make it more gamey. But soft factors and fog of war and "friction" in combat are what BFC do best in CM, and what keep me coming back to the game again and again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I love the unpredictability of this behavior and I think it's entirely realistic.<snip> +1 to what Broadsword56 said. I would suggest that perhaps AFVs are too happy to stay in dangerous areas. I am thinking of an QB I have going right now. Three out of four of my AFVs remain. Two of them have taken hits and are doing the reverse out of danger trick when they encounter dangerous enemy elements. One though is happy as a clam sitting in the bocage pounding the other side of the field (thank goodness for that:-). Sounds OK except their infantry screen is basically completely gone. There are a few remnants around but that tank in the bocage line has one solider still fighting beside the tank. I am not sure how many tank commanders in RL would have stayed and fought in those conditions with no infantry around. Goes back to something I said on another thread we are pressing our virtual troops much further than RL commanders would normally. I know there are exceptional circumstances that require desperate measures etc. I just think that when your troops and tanks get to the state where they don't want to advance any more; they are telling you something: It is time to go, to pull back, to live to fight again another day. I personally would like to play more campaigns for this very reason. Suddenly force preservation becomes a real concern. But alas without PBEM support for campaigns that will not be happening any time soon. Although a friend of mine and I are cooking up a scheme to support it using several scenarios that we manually tweak after each battle. If we finish the planning and make it happen I'll let you all know hot it goes. But don't hold your breath - because you might die:) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I love the unpredictability of this behavior and I think it's entirely realistic. me too but maybe BFC could gives another button besides the "courtmartial" button - this other button could be named "ritterkreuz" "medal of honor" or "victoria cross" button and it would work only in 1 case out of 1'... (put as many 0s as you want) and the unit concerned would do the unexpected heroic deed you are so desperately in need of. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I love the unpredictability of this behavior and I think it's entirely realistic. WWII accounts are full of stories about how tanks would advance, covering the infantry, a tank or two gets brewed up, and suddenly the entire tank force is pulling back, to the dismay of the infantrymen. The tankers in their accounts blame the infantrymen for going to ground prematurely and failing to flush out the panzerfausts and AT crews in their path. I'm OK if things like global morale become options that some players can switch off when they want total control over what the units do to make it more gamey. But soft factors and fog of war and "friction" in combat are what BFC do best in CM, and what keep me coming back to the game again and again. WWII accounts are NOT full of stories of tanks fleeing uncontrollably from light mortars and this is solely the result of broken game mechanics. I swear some of you will think ANYTHING is realistic if it's in the game. "Indestructible Syrian trees? Realistic!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 WWII accounts are NOT full of stories of tanks fleeing uncontrollably from light mortars and this is solely the result of broken game mechanics. I swear some of you will think ANYTHING is realistic if it's in the game. "Indestructible Syrian trees? Realistic!" 1 That wasn't what was said and 2 Dude it happened to you ONCE according to what you said. Maybe the crew wasn't so sure what hit it was a mortar. Would it have made you feel better if during the mortar barrage it got hit by an HE round from another tank and ignored it figuring "hell that was probably just a mortar". I have yet to make a tank retreat from any artillery. And mine certainly haven't backed off from my opponents attacks that I have suffered under for the last 30 minutes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Maybe there is something weird about CM2 systems. However, tankers are a nervous lot - at least in WW2 they were. There is something about being trapped in a furnace watching yourself burning to death that made them skittish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 It's to do with the retardedly broken morale model and happened frequently in the previous series of games too. I had a game where a Sherman retreated uncontrollably each turn from a LIGHT MORTAR. ?? Unless you were playing a Blue v. Blue game, I think you're confusing your weapons definitions a bit. The Germans don't as of yet have any light mortars in CMBN -- just 81mm mortars, which would qualify as a medium mortar. And medium mortar fire can most definitely be dangerous to tanks. I wouldn't call 81mm mortar fire a tank killer, but I also wouldn't leave a tank sitting still under 81mm fire, and IMHO tanks *should* move out from under 81mm of their own accord. Too much risk of track or optics damage, and there is definitely a nonzero chance of a top hit KO. But at any rate, without further details, it's impossible to say whether the behavior you experienced is a problem or not. What was the morale, experience and C2 state of the Sherman? Was the crew already Rattled? Could that tank itself actually see the 81mm crew, or was it simply under fire from a mortar that it could not see? If the tank could see the enemy mortar team, how close was the mortar team to the tank? There might be a problem here, or there might not be; the devil is in the details. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 A further update on the global morale and tanks becoming rattled despite not really being fired at. I just saw the end game screen and checked the American units and most of his infantry were broken yet his tanks were OK status? I am now not sure why on earth my tanks went to rattled and his stayed OK? The only slight difference is that he did not lose HQ units so maybe C2 with tanks was OK where the German C2 was lost as HQ units were killed? I have no problem with retreating tanks and yes have read reports about tanks pulling back, but not when they have a clean shot and have not been seen by the enemy which I think is wrong they should have taken a shot IMO. IRL if the tank commander had said edge up to peek through the bocage and then saw a Sherman out in the open I would like to think he would have fired the gun before pulling back. Anyway I will keep an eye open to see if this happens again. Also I might spend some time with the replays to try and find out when they became rattled... H P.s. Just reading about Elsdorf and a Tiger there pulled back (reversing down street) and ran aground on building rubble and had to be abandoned by it's crew. So I understand tanks pulling back and the modelling in the game is pretty good, just can't understand why three crews went to rattled when not fired at and had not really engaged in any combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 1 That wasn't what was said and 2 Dude it happened to you ONCE according to what you said. Maybe the crew wasn't so sure what hit it was a mortar. Would it have made you feel better if during the mortar barrage it got hit by an HE round from another tank and ignored it figuring "hell that was probably just a mortar". I have yet to make a tank retreat from any artillery. And mine certainly haven't backed off from my opponents attacks that I have suffered under for the last 30 minutes. It's happened on more than one occasion, and a huge number of times when a tank completely blindsides an enemy vehicle or gun that it is perfectly capable of destroying with little risk to itself, yet reverses away uncontrollably without firing. As confirmed by other players. It is a blatantly broken game mechanic and was a common problem in the original series too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 ?? Unless you were playing a Blue v. Blue game, I think you're confusing your weapons definitions a bit. The Germans don't as of yet have any light mortars in CMBN -- just 81mm mortars, which would qualify as a medium mortar. And medium mortar fire can most definitely be dangerous to tanks. I wouldn't call 81mm mortar fire a tank killer, but I also wouldn't leave a tank sitting still under 81mm fire, and IMHO tanks *should* move out from under 81mm of their own accord. Too much risk of track or optics damage, and there is definitely a nonzero chance of a top hit KO. But at any rate, without further details, it's impossible to say whether the behavior you experienced is a problem or not. What was the morale, experience and C2 state of the Sherman? Was the crew already Rattled? Could that tank itself actually see the 81mm crew, or was it simply under fire from a mortar that it could not see? If the tank could see the enemy mortar team, how close was the mortar team to the tank? There might be a problem here, or there might not be; the devil is in the details. The tank turned a corner to find a mortar FACING THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION and fled uncontrollably the moment the mortar pivoted towards it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It's happened on more than one occasion, and a huge number of times when a tank completely blindsides an enemy vehicle or gun that it is perfectly capable of destroying with little risk to itself, yet reverses away uncontrollably without firing. As confirmed by other players. It is a blatantly broken game mechanic and was a common problem in the original series too. I won't argue that it is happening to you (though a save of that mortar incident would probably be heldpful to BFC) however a huge number of times and a common problem I am not so sure. I have yet to see it. Would be very helpful to folks if it were possible to reproduce to understand what may be going on. Without data they aren't going to look too hard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 I have the save files of the three tanks reversing when they were hidden and had clear shots so can send them but not sure if BTS really wants them? Not sure it is a broken game mechanic in the eyes of BTS? I am sure the Beta Test team must have had similar results? Anyway if BTS or a test team member wants the file(s) I will gladly send. I am now interested in why the German tanks went to rattled when the majority of the German Inf were rattled but the American tanks stayed OK but the their infantry were on the whole broken. As mentioned the only difference I can think that might account for it is the loss of HQ's. If time allows I might run some tests to see if it is really down to the HQ loss. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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