Crossing Wire without Demo Charges !SPOILERS!

[Rake]

I'm playing the first scenario of the Road to Montebourg campaign and I had planned for my assault platoon to advance from the second stream in conjunction with an artillery barrage. Well, unbeknownst during my planning, there is wire along the left side of the field.

I moved the first squad up to the wire and gave each team a "hunt" order to cross to the other side... they decided that the best course of action was to walk along the edge of the wire a take the long way around.

The turn ended and I cancelled all the moves that the AI had rerouted and "quicked" the teams back to their original starting points. I gave one team a "move" order, another a "quick" order and another a "fast" order. Again, every one of the teams began to move off to the right to go around the wire instead of through the wire.

The only thing I could find in the manual about movement through wire is on Page 194 and states "Barbed wire consists of a barbed wire fence on a wooden structure, and is meant to slow down (not stop) infantry movement".

Granted, forcing my teams to circle 300 meters around the wire is slowing down infantry movement, but I don't think this is what is intended to (or should) be happening.

I felt like the assault was going to be timed as well as my tactically-challenged brain will allow. The assault platoon just needed to cross the fence and wait for the barrage to begin. After the 81mm's were through, I was going to follow on with the on-map mortars on the hedgerow in front of Beau Guillot while the 81's dropped WP in the faces of the bunkers on the right. The overwatch platoons were in place in the best cover I can find. But, now the barrage is nearly over and the assault platoon is wandering all over the countryside. Once the barrage lifts these guys will be sitting ducks for anything left in the bocage.

How do you get troops to cross wire without hiking around like they're looking for a hole in the bocage?

[Agua]

Run over it with tanks. If you find some other way, let us know.

[Magpie_Oz]

What if you gave them a Slow move order, i.e. crawling under it ?

[Rake]

Run over it with tanks. If you find some other way, let us know.

There are no tanks in this scenario... there is nothing to be used in this scenario that I've used in others. In CMx1, crossing wire took an eternity, but it could be done... as in RL

[Rake]

What if you gave them a Slow move order, i.e. crawling under it ?

Actually, I think I did have a slow order in there someplace... I'll have to check tomorrow

[The_Capt]

Engineers + Blast = Hole. Just like real life.

You can try tanks and arty but I have never seen it work.

[Agua]

There are no tanks in this scenario... there is nothing to be used in this scenario that I've used in others.

I know. My point was you're pretty much left with run around the wire.

In CMx1, crossing wire took an eternity, but it could be done... as in RL

Not happening here. Yet, anyway.

[Magpie_Oz]

Does any one know what type of entanglement the game wire is meant to represent? Not all wire is equal and it could be an entanglement many metres deep or a single line of concertina wire.

You can jump a single line of concertina but spend, quite literally, the rest of your life in a major entanglement.

[Michael Emrys]

Yeah, I used to have an engineering field manual with an illustration of such an entanglement. It showed the wire running from the tops of stakes at about ankle or shin height. First there was the strand that surrounded the whole area. But then there were dozens of strands running criss-cross all over the area. I suppose a bangalore might have opened a breach in one go if you had one. Otherwise, you're left with cutting it one strand at a time, a task that could take maybe half an hour. If the obstacle were covered by fire, as you can pretty well bet it would, that would seem a mighty long half hour.

Michael

[The_Capt]

Does any one know what type of entanglement the game wire is meant to represent? Not all wire is equal and it could be an entanglement many metres deep or a single line of concertina wire.

You can jump a single line of concertina but spend, quite literally, the rest of your life in a major entanglement.

Based largely on the fact that troops cannot pass thru unsupported in-game, I would say that the ingame wire is at least Cat II (double row of double high) or higher. In CMx1 I think it was Cat I or a low wire entanglement (as described above) as troop could pass thru unsupported but very slowly.

[YankeeDog]

Based largely on the fact that troops cannot pass thru unsupported in-game, I would say that the ingame wire is at least Cat II (double row of double high) or higher. In CMx1 I think it was Cat I or a low wire entanglement (as described above) as troop could pass thru unsupported but very slowly.

Yeah: I'm not particularly happy with the fact that wire is completely impassable in the game by infantry without blowing it up or tracks running over it, but I guess it works if you consider the wire defensive obstacle to be very high, dense wire. It would be nice to have a defensive unit that represented more hastily placed, less dense wire, though -- the kind that only really approaches "impassable" when combined with covering MG and/or mortar fire. By my SWAG, your "Cat I" seems to have been pretty common in WWII in actual front line tactical engagements, but not so much Cat II.

[Rake]

Based largely on the fact that troops cannot pass thru unsupported in-game, I would say that the ingame wire is at least Cat II (double row of double high) or higher. In CMx1 I think it was Cat I or a low wire entanglement (as described above) as troop could pass thru unsupported but very slowly.

Okay, I understand now that wire is impassible without assistance. My confusion was primarily with regard to the statement in the manual which I quoted in my OP.

"Barbed wire consists of a barbed wire fence on a wooden structure, and is meant to slow down (not stop) infantry movement".

My next question is, besides the obvious "gameyness" and lack of any sense of fair play, what would prevent an unscrupulous defender from purchasing a multitude of wire fortifications and completely blocking off any access to VL's? Of course, few would ever play him again, but the question remains.

For 1250 points, a German defender could run a continuous line of barbed wire across a 1 km wide map. Without tank or breach team support, the attacker is screwed.

I think there really should be some way for regular infantry to cross wire, even if it takes quite a long time. Barring that, the manual should be changed to reflect the reality that wire does indeed stop infantry movement.

[The_Capt]

Okay, I understand now that wire is impassible without assistance. My confusion was primarily with regard to the statement in the manual which I quoted in my OP.

My next question is, besides the obvious "gameyness" and lack of any sense of fair play, what would prevent an unscrupulous defender from purchasing a multitude of wire fortifications and completely blocking off any access to VL's? Of course, few would ever play him again, but the question remains.

For 1250 points, a German defender could run a continuous line of barbed wire across a 1 km wide map. Without tank or breach team support, the attacker is screwed.

I think there really should be some way for regular infantry to cross wire, even if it takes quite a long time. Barring that, the manual should be changed to reflect the reality that wire does indeed stop infantry movement.

Gents,

A big weakness in CMx1 was the engineer/pioneer play. Obstacles were very weak and basically you didn't really need engineer/pioneer support to play.

CMx2 goes a very long way to changing this. In the scenario above the defender could blanket the map with wire but he would have little else to cover them by fire with. This means pioneers could execute multiple breaches and kill the few defenders left.

Play balance now goes four ways. Armour, infantry, artillery and pioneer support/obstacles. IMHO this makes for a far richer and realistic wargaming experience.

In order to allow infantry to cross unsupported I think we would need to delve into the world of wire obstacles. We would need Light Wire and Heavy Wire, properly QB cost balanced. Someday but we are not there yet.

[womble]

For 1250 points, a German defender could run a continuous line of barbed wire across a 1 km wide map. Without tank or breach team support, the attacker is screwed.

The moral of this story is "Always take a breach team". A few 10s of points voids that 1250, largely: you win

[LarsS]

Yeah, if you attack without tracks, artillery, engineers, breach teams or tank hunter teams, you deserve to lose in my book.

Light and medium mortars can't cut wire, regardless of number of hits. Neither can area fire hand grenades (incidentally, you CAN destroy bridges with hand grenades). 120 mm mortars only need one hit to make a breach. With demo charges it sometimes takes more than one. Haven't tested the lighter guns.

[Rake]

Gents,

A big weakness in CMx1 was the engineer/pioneer play. Obstacles were very weak and basically you didn't really need engineer/pioneer support to play.

CMx2 goes a very long way to changing this. In the scenario above the defender could blanket the map with wire but he would have little else to cover them by fire with. This means pioneers could execute multiple breaches and kill the few defenders left.

Play balance now goes four ways. Armour, infantry, artillery and pioneer support/obstacles. IMHO this makes for a far richer and realistic wargaming experience.

In order to allow infantry to cross unsupported I think we would need to delve into the world of wire obstacles. We would need Light Wire and Heavy Wire, properly QB cost balanced. Someday but we are not there yet.

Capt,

I don't wish to seem argumentative and I really do appreciate your responses and the clarifications provided by yourself and others. I also greatly appreciate all the time, effort and research that the beta team, along with BFC, has put into this game. For the most part (still anxiously awaiting the patch), this game has met or exceeded all my expectations.

Now that I understand what the "rules" are, I'll adapt my tactics accordingly.

My frustration with regard to this issue is the wording in the manual. When I first observed the wire and realized that without tanks or breach teams to open the wire, I was confronted with a situation which I had not previously encountered.

I went to the manual and read the section which I have twice quoted. It implied to me that it is possible for infantry to cross wire, albeit slowly. I think that implication is a reasonable assumption based upon the wording. Nowhere does it state that tank or engineer support is necessary.

My only other thought on this going forward would be to suggest that the manual be clarified. I realize that the change would never make it into a printed copy, but it seems this could easily be done to the digital version and included with the patch. I've only opened the manual that came with the steelbox long enough to realize that the print was far too small for my ancient eyes to read. I immediately printed out the pdf and placed it in a three ring binder... for me, errata could be handled by removing pages 194 & 195 from the binder and inserting the new sheets or by including an errata sheet a la SL/ASL in the olden days. Of course, this particular item is one thing I'll never forget in the future.

[Michael Emrys]

My only other thought on this going forward would be to suggest that the manual be clarified.

The manual is unclear, incomplete, or simply incorrect in a number of areas. That said, it is light years beyond the average game manual these days. I wish for better but am glad for what I got.

Michael

[Noltyboy]

Hey, i just tried to blow some wire in the courage and fortitude campain. all i unded up with was a big whole in the dirt, with the wire in it and a dead pioneer, im confused

[womble]

Hey, i just tried to blow some wire in the courage and fortitude campain. all i unded up with was a big whole in the dirt, with the wire in it and a dead pioneer, im confused

This will be the wire at the beginning of the bridge, I reckon? I can explain 2 of the three features you mention:

1: the big hole in the dirt is because, underneath the wire, there is a set of landmines. These detonate sympathetically when demo charges are used on top of them.

2: the dead pioneer was killed by the same sympathetic detonation of the land mine.

The lack of destruction of the wire is a bit more tricky, so I'm going to guess:

There's a low stone wall near the wire. It may be possible, if you didn't quite handle the Blast command right to get it in the right place, that the Blast worked on the wall instead of the wire, and the mine sympathetically detonated, by sheer bad luck, from the nearby use of the demo charge. I can't think of anything else that might result in a crater but the wire still being there: if the demo went off (as it must've to set off the mine, which is the only explosion that'll kill an engineer), then the wire would be gone if that was where the demo charge actually exploded.

[Noltyboy]

This will be the wire at the beginning of the bridge, I reckon? I can explain 2 of the three features you mention:

1: the big hole in the dirt is because, underneath the wire, there is a set of landmines. These detonate sympathetically when demo charges are used on top of them.

2: the dead pioneer was killed by the same sympathetic detonation of the land mine.

The lack of destruction of the wire is a bit more tricky, so I'm going to guess:

There's a low stone wall near the wire. It may be possible, if you didn't quite handle the Blast command right to get it in the right place, that the Blast worked on the wall instead of the wire, and the mine sympathetically detonated, by sheer bad luck, from the nearby use of the demo charge. I can't think of anything else that might result in a crater but the wire still being there: if the demo went off (as it must've to set off the mine, which is the only explosion that'll kill an engineer), then the wire would be gone if that was where the demo charge actually exploded.

Ahh! that makes sense about the hole, im now very glad i didnt just drive my sherman through the wire! And to be honest thinking back i put the blast command through the end join of the two lengths of barbed wire

I dont think it was the wall as they where heading from the bridge side of the wire.

[Pak40]

A big weakness in CMx1 was the engineer/pioneer play. Obstacles were very weak and basically you didn't really need engineer/pioneer support to play.

Capt,

I disagree that this was a weakness in CMx1. In fact, it was more historically realistic that a squad could slowly move through wire. Every U.S. squad was issued wire cutters and the Germans likely had plenty of them too.

Your suggestion to make different level of wires is a good one. Of course, in CMx1 one could always just double up the wires to get the same effect.

[The_Capt]

Capt,

I disagree that this was a weakness in CMx1. In fact, it was more historically realistic that a squad could slowly move through wire. Every U.S. squad was issued wire cutters and the Germans likely had plenty of them too.

Your suggestion to make different level of wires is a good one. Of course, in CMx1 one could always just double up the wires to get the same effect.

I was speaking of engineer/pioneer play in general but as to wire specifically, CMx1 presented one type of wire only, roughly a Cat I or double strand obstacle, that your box standard infantry could muddle through at a reduced rate. In CMBN, we are seeing the equivalent of a Type II or possibly a Type III. These are very heavy wire obstacles that will not only effectively stop infantry but can pose a serious obstacle to tracked vehicles (I have personally seen a Type II de-track a 113).

By "effectively stop", I mean the time it would tack to hack thru it by hand is prohibitive in the context of a CM scenario. In this case explosive charges are the best bet for a quick effective breach...enter the pioneers.

In game this changes the "cost to effectiveness" equation for wire so we see more use (hopefully) and a richer combined arms employment that includes pioneers/engineers.