(Another) C2 query

[John1966]

That should read:

'However, you have confused me with "artillery net". '

[John1966]

Well moving the weapons HQ closer to the mortars has solved the no contact problem as far as spotting is concerned, as you'd expect. However, F company are all still out of contact for C2 purposes so his radio can't be working.

Except for the fact that Capt C. is in contact with battalion HQ according to the display. So maybe it IS working?

Perhaps its receiving but not transmitting?! ; )

[akd]

Sounds like the Coy HQ radio is up. Are you sure the platoon HQs haven't recently been moving, taking casualties, etc.?

[dakuth]

Have you tried making Carlson move a square closer? My guess would be a bug - perhaps a movement/setup related bug, and if he hasn't moved at all yet it might not count as having "set up." I find that re-enforcements start out of C2 but establish it a few seconds later (the movement thing.)

Perhaps it is a bug related to that interaction?

[IRUNSAMOK]

Regarding casualties in the platoon HQs, I have an HQ in the Montebourge campaign that has lost the PL and his XO leaving a sargeant in command. The radio operator is still there and there is a radio in the inventory. According to the UI it is still the HQ. However, it is a broken link in the C2, no one in the platoon considers sarge a leader worth telling anything apparently. Sarge also dosn't believe in radios or talking to the Captain, cause there's no C2 even when sitting next to the CO. Red dots. Didn't find an answer in the manual, thought I'd ask here instead of starting a new thread.

I have a save file.

[John1966]

Sounds like the Coy HQ radio is up. Are you sure the platoon HQs haven't recently been moving, taking casualties, etc.?

The thing is, it's the ENTIRE COMPANY that isn't in visual that are out of C2. To be honest, I've lost track of which/when the platoon HQs moved but that FO has been sat on its derriere (calling off-board arty with no problem) for some time and it is not in C2. I've moved Capt. C to get up that hill and start earning his pay with the rest of the company. As soon as he gets out of visual contact with those mortars (i.e. as soon as I get a chance to do another couple of turns) I will look with great interest as to whether THEY remain in C2.

Those mortars were out of contact from turn 1 before a shot was fired. F company has generally been on the move but that FO is sat perfectly still. He could get arty from every source except the company's own mortars (until I moved the weapons HQ). And he is STILL out of C2 (along with everyone else).

[akd]

The thing is, it's the ENTIRE COMPANY that isn't in visual that are out of C2. To be honest, I've lost track of which/when the platoon HQs moved but that FO has been sat on its derriere (calling off-board arty with no problem) for some time and it is not in C2. I've moved Capt. C to get up that hill and start earning his pay with the rest of the company. As soon as he gets out of visual contact with those mortars (i.e. as soon as I get a chance to do another couple of turns) I will look with great interest as to whether THEY remain in C2.

Those mortars were out of contact from turn 1 before a shot was fired. F company has generally been on the move but that FO is sat perfectly still. He could get arty from every source except the company's own mortars (until I moved the weapons HQ). And he is STILL out of C2 (along with everyone else).

"out of contact" in the artillery interface tells you nothing about the C2 status of the spotter. A unit that can call indirect fire will always be able to unless the qualified spotter is killed. C2 status or even the outright loss of the radio will not change this. The mortars were "out of contact" because:

1. The mortars were out of C2 with their immediate superior HQ.

2. The mortars did not have an alternate means to receive fire missions (a vehicle with radio parked nearby).

Whether or not the platoon HQs or FO have C2 links with the Company HQ has no effect on the "out of contact" status for the mortars, so we can set that aside.

Our only question now is why the Company HQ's subordinate platoon HQs and FO do not have radio C2 links to the Company HQ.

Hoolaman was correct earlier: there is a small, random chance for radio failure, which should only be temporary (a few turns) when it occurs. But if the Company HQ has a radio link up to Battalion, then that is not what is happening.

[Michael Emrys]

Regarding casualties in the platoon HQs, I have an HQ in the Montebourge campaign that has lost the PL and his XO leaving a sargeant in command. The radio operator is still there and there is a radio in the inventory. According to the UI it is still the HQ. However, it is a broken link in the C2, no one in the platoon considers sarge a leader worth telling anything apparently. Sarge also dosn't believe in radios or talking to the Captain, cause there's no C2 even when sitting next to the CO.

I had a similar situation occur in one running of TF Raff #1. I was planning to use the Coy. HQ to direct mortar fire, but the Capt. got popped early on and only the sergeant and RO were left. Unfortunately, the mortars were not inclined to listen to a mere sergeant, so there went my arty support.

Michael

[John1966]

"out of contact" in the artillery interface tells you nothing about the C2 status of the spotter. A unit that can call indirect fire will always be able to unless the qualified spotter is killed. C2 status or even the outright loss of the radio will not change this. The mortars were "out of contact" because:

1. The mortars were out of C2 with their immediate superior HQ.

2. The mortars did not have an alternate means to receive fire missions (a vehicle with radio parked nearby).

Whether or not the platoon HQs or FO have C2 links with the Company HQ has no effect on the "out of contact" status for the mortars, so we can set that aside.

Our only question now is why the Company HQ's subordinate platoon HQs and FO do not have radio C2 links to the Company HQ.

Hoolaman was correct earlier: there is a small, random chance for radio failure, which should only be temporary (a few turns) when it occurs. But if the Company HQ has a radio link up to Battalion, then that is not what is happening.

The mortars were in C2 as the Company HQ was stood next to them (and the green light confirmed this).

It was the rest of the company who were out of C2 even though the company HQ had a radio. (I did not notice that the rest of the company were out of C2 at first. This just came to light as I was trying work out why no-one on the battlefield, other than the company HQ could contact the mortars).

These two issues look linked to me. No-one on the battlefield can contact the mortars that are stood next to a Company HQ (even though all other arty is accessable and contactable). Everyone in that company who is out of visual with the same company HQ is out of C2.

[stikkypixie]

Do you have a save file? I'm no beta tester, but I'm very curious now .

[John1966]

Checking the manual here and its all about communication links. I think this talk of weapons platoon HQs and "artillery network" is a bit of a red herring : ) If the company HQ is in visual with the mortars then the spotters should be able to call it in as long as they are in contact with the Coy HQ. Remember, they were "out of contact" not "denied".

The C2 is an issue because it works in the same way. The manual talks about the C2 links in reference to spotting. No mention of a seperate "artillery network". Yes, a lowly unit may not be able to call in a high level asset but in that case it would say "denied" (and is unlikely to apply to the company's own on-board mortars anyway).

The spotters are "out of contact" with the mortars that the company HQ has visual with and everyone out of visual with the company HQ is out of C2. This MUST be a communication issue.

In fact, I would be certain it was the company HQ radio simply being broken if it wasn't for the fact that the company HQ was shown as in C2 with battalion HQ.

On the other hand, this is, of course, an off-board fictional battalion HQ that doesn't really exist within the game. In those circumstances I might guess that the company HQ being in C2 with battalion HQ is just an unchangable default status.

In which case that radio is broken and I confirm that it doesn't always just last a few turns.

[John1966]

Do you have a save file? I'm no beta tester, but I'm very curious now .

Might have. How do I share such a thing?

[stikkypixie]

Might have. How do I share such a thing?

There are several free file hosting sites, such as dropbox. Just pick one and put a link here. Maybe it will get picked up by BFC as well.

[hoolaman]

On the other hand, this is, of course, an off-board fictional battalion HQ that doesn't really exist within the game. In those circumstances I might guess that the company HQ being in C2 with battalion HQ is just an unchangable default status.

That could be the case. I think higher off-map (non-existent) HQ's are linked in by default to enable comms between otherwise unlinked subordinate formations.

Could you make a save and post here or send to myself or akd (PM for my email address).

[akd]

Checking the manual here and its all about communication links. I think this talk of weapons platoon HQs and "artillery network" is a bit of a red herring : ) If the company HQ is in visual with the mortars then the spotters should be able to call it in as long as they are in contact with the Coy HQ. Remember, they were "out of contact" not "denied".

The C2 is an issue because it works in the same way. The manual talks about the C2 links in reference to spotting. No mention of a seperate "artillery network". Yes, a lowly unit may not be able to call in a high level asset but in that case it would say "denied" (and is unlikely to apply to the company's own on-board mortars anyway).

The spotters are "out of contact" with the mortars that the company HQ has visual with and everyone out of visual with the company HQ is out of C2. This MUST be a communication issue.

In fact, I would be certain it was the company HQ radio simply being broken if it wasn't for the fact that the company HQ was shown as in C2 with battalion HQ.

First, there is a very good chance you are misinterpreting the command chain display in the far lower left. This is a chain, not a tree, and only tells you the status of the normal chain of command, not whether a unit is under temporary command from a higher HQ. If a mortar is selected and shows a red "X" next to their platoon and a green circle next to the Company HQ, that does not mean the mortar has C2 with the Company HQ, it means the mortar is out of C2 with its platoon HQ, but the platoon HQ is in C2 with the Company HQ.

However, even if the mortar has lost C2 with its own platoon HQ, if it is within close proximity to the Company HQ, it can gain C2 link icons (visual or voice) as long as it remains nearby. This has one effect: the mortars will be considered in command for morale purposes and sharing contact inforation.

Temporary command will not change the status of the chain of command display in the far lower left, and it will not restore the mortar to "in contact" with other spotters. There are only three ways to change the "out of contact" status for mortars:

1. The mortars must have good links all the way up their chain of command to an HQ with a radio (in most cases this means they must be in contact with their immediate superior, but in a few cases they must be in contact with their Section HQ and the Section HQ must be in contact with the Platoon HQ).

or

2. The mortars must be positioned beside a stationary vehicle with a radio.

or

3. The mortars must be within voice range of the spotter.

"Out of contact" in the artillery interface doesn't tell you anything about the C2 status of the selected spotter. This can be proven easily: take a tank platoon HQ tank that is "in contact" with on- or off-map artillery. Drive this tank far away from friendly units (C2 will be by radio only). Now dismount the HQ crew and run them far away from their tank (C2 will be lost as they no longer have a radio). This unit will still be "in contact" with the same artillery assets.

On the other hand, this is, of course, an off-board fictional battalion HQ that doesn't really exist within the game. In those circumstances I might guess that the company HQ being in C2 with battalion HQ is just an unchangable default status.

In which case that radio is broken and I confirm that it doesn't always just last a few turns.

The battalion HQ is on the map in this scenario.

[John1966]

If a mortar is selected and shows a red "X" next to their platoon and a green circle next to the Company HQ, that does not mean the mortar has C2 with the Company HQ, it means the mortar is out of C2 with its platoon HQ, but the platoon HQ is in C2 with the Company HQ.

Fair enough but the mortars have always had the green light and not the the red x. Their C2 status is not the issue.

1. The mortars must have good links all the way up their chain of command to an HQ with a radio (in most cases this means they must be in contact with their immediate superior, but in a few cases they must be in contact with their Section HQ and the Section HQ must be in contact with the Platoon HQ).

or

2. The mortars must be positioned beside a stationary vehicle with a radio.

or

3. The mortars must be within voice range of the spotter.

This is not what the manual says (unless I've missed a bit - possible). It's also not my experience. If there is a Coy HQ with a radio next to the mortars then, as far as I understand, the mortars should not be "out of contact" with any spotter who is in radio communication with the Coy HQ.

You are saying this is incorrect? The manual talks about using the section HQs etc for spreading the mortars out, it doesn't state that it is only those who are the correct position in the chain who can maintain the contact status of the mortars. The implication is that the Coy HQ can maintain that contact (regardless of C2). Are you saying that the Coy HQ cannot provide the necessary "link" for arty spotting?

That would also make the Coy HQ slightly less useful than I'd thought.

"Out of contact" in the artillery interface doesn't tell you anything about the C2 status of the selected spotter.

I realise this. But the red cross on the interface is saying they are also out of C2. They are "out of contact" for spotting purposes as indicated by the artilliery interface and they are out of C2 as indicated by the unit display. I realise that these are two different things and would not necesarily be the same as each other in all cases. What I am saying is that both these circumstances seem to have come about as a result of no communication with the Coy HQ (unless you are right about the Coy HQ being unable to provide the "link" for spotting purposes).

The battalion HQ is on the map in this scenario.

Aha, you are quite correct! Actually I'd forgotten about that. The battalion HQ got wiped out when a very flukey mortar shell (that quite clearly missed where it was supposed to go) landed in their jeep! (Odd that I should forget such a memorable moment but I'd rather got wrapped up in this radio business)

Alas, the battalion HQ is no more.

But that's even more rum. That Coy HQ has a green light saying that it is in C2 with a battallion HQ that isn't "fictional and off-board" but actually no longer exists (total wipe out - no wounded). Not sure what to make of that.

Still reckon Captain Carlson's radio isn't working.

[stikkypixie]

Just put the save game up.

[Michael Emrys]

Sounds to me as if the C2 in BN needs some looking at. Even if it works as intended, it is so non-intuitive as to present unnecessary difficulties in employing it.

Michael

[sburke]

But that's even more rum. That Coy HQ has a green light saying that it is in C2 with a battallion HQ that isn't "fictional and off-board" but actually no longer exists (total wipe out - no wounded). Not sure what to make of that.

Still reckon Captain Carlson's radio isn't working.

Ahh i think I know what's going on. They are conducting a seance!! Now that is one cool feature!

[akd]

Fair enough but the mortars have always had the green light and not the the red x. Their C2 status is not the issue.

Really can't say without seeing a save. Please PM me (upper right of forum) and I will give you my e-mail address to send a save to.

This is not what the manual says (unless I've missed a bit - possible). It's also not my experience. If there is a Coy HQ with a radio next to the mortars then, as far as I understand, the mortars should not be "out of contact" with any spotter who is in radio communication with the Coy HQ.

The manual does not say this.

You are saying this is incorrect? The manual talks about using the section HQs etc for spreading the mortars out, it doesn't state that it is only those who are the correct position in the chain who can maintain the contact status of the mortars. The implication is that the Coy HQ can maintain that contact (regardless of C2). Are you saying that the Coy HQ cannot provide the necessary "link" for arty spotting?

The manual does not really imply this.

Weapons type platoons were often asked to operate over larger distances than

infantry type platoons. Since radios were not usually available, the solution

was to add intermediate Section HQs between the Platoon HQ and the weapons

under its command. Their job was to extend the range of the Platoon HQ

by acting as a relay point for communications.

A good example of Section HQs can be found in most Medium Mortar Platoons.

Often there are two Section HQs, each with two mortars, assigned to a single

Platoon. By positioning the Section HQs, and their assigned mortar teams,

to the left and right of the Platoon HQ, the Platoon Leader can communicate

with each of his Section Leaders, which in turn communicate with each of

their Mortar Team Leaders. This allows voice and visual commands to be

quickly and efficiently relayed from top to bottom over a much greater area

than platoons without Section HQs.

The importance of positioning Section HQs becomes apparent when attempting

to call for indirect fire support. For defensive reasons, you don’t want your

mortars bunched together, yet if you spread out too much you’ll loose contact

with them. If that happens, then they usually will be unavailable for indirect

fire missions. Section HQs, therefore, are vitally important despite their

lack of radios.

However, the following section bears further explanation, as taken on its own it can be misleading:

C2 Links - ideally the Spotter should show green connections to all superior

units. The spotter also needs a connection to the firing unit in order to be

able to call on it to fire. Units without a communication link to the spotter

are shown as “out of contact” in the Support Roster.

1. "Ideally" means that a spotter without C2 will be less efficient than a spotter with C2, i.e. there will be longer delays, increased chance of errors, etc.

2. "out of contact" originates from the indirect unit to the spotter, not from the spotter to the indirect unit.

That would also make the Coy HQ slightly less useful than I'd thought.

In so much as you cannot dynamically create new C2 structures without penalties or restrictions, then yes. If it is vital to a scenario that mortars be under control of the Company HQ rather than their own HQ, then it would be best for the scenario designer to delete the mortars and attach "specialist team" mortars directly to the Company HQ in the editor.

I realise this. But the red cross on the interface is saying they are also out of C2. They are "out of contact" for spotting purposes as indicated by the artilliery interface and they are out of C2 as indicated by the unit display. I realise that these are two different things and would not necesarily be the same as each other in all cases. What I am saying is that both these circumstances seem to have come about as a result of no communication with the Coy HQ (unless you are right about the Coy HQ being unable to provide the "link" for spotting purposes).

There is absolutely no case where they are the same because "out of contact" never originates on the spotter's end.

Aha, you are quite correct! Actually I'd forgotten about that. The battalion HQ got wiped out when a very flukey mortar shell (that quite clearly missed where it was supposed to go) landed in their jeep! (Odd that I should forget such a memorable moment but I'd rather got wrapped up in this radio business)

Alas, the battalion HQ is no more.

But that's even more rum. That Coy HQ has a green light saying that it is in C2 with a battallion HQ that isn't "fictional and off-board" but actually no longer exists (total wipe out - no wounded). Not sure what to make of that.

Still reckon Captain Carlson's radio isn't working.

When the Battalion HQ is wiped out, all subordinates instantly lose contact, which is seen both in the command chain with any unit selected and in the loss of command icons on the immediate subordinate HQs (i.e. Company HQs). After a delay, C2 is reestablished to Battalion level (light goes green on chain, Coy HQ gets back radio icon). This is because the XO has formed a new Battalion HQ. In the case of the Bois de Baugin scenario, the author removed the XO from the on-map order of battle, so it is presumed off-map in the rear. If the XO were present on the map, you see its icon change to an HQ flag.

[akd]

Correction to above: the icon does not change, but the unit name does.