joebloggs Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 At the end of the operation the 21 Army Group was in possession of the larger percentage of the Netherlands and in a good position to continue operations. Sure they did not achieve full success but the gains that they made were significant. Perhaps also consider one factor, what commander is going to carry out a major operation and sustain significant casulaties and then say to his me "Well we stuffed that one up, your mates died in vain" Sadly the Dutch people were going to suffer casualties whatever took place. The French civilians suffered just as much if not more in the liberation of their country, things like this help no one. The whole point of Market Garden was to "End the war by Christmas" so in that respect it was a spectacular failure as the war in Europe dragged on for another eight months at the cost of many more lives. Did the men of the combined Airborne forces die in vain? In respect of their overall objective and the SNAFUS during the planning I would say yes. 1st AB Division was effectively a spent force that never saw action again. The fact that the operation was allowed to go ahead despite intelligence reports of German units refitting in the area, not "old men on bicycles", shows that egos were more important than sound military judgement. The true prize of MG was not the Bridge at Arnhem but beating the Russians to Berlin. Eisenhower had his letter of resignation prepared on the eve of D Day incase he had to say "Well we stuffed that one up, your mates died in vain" Were the gains of MG worth the cost? The debate continues!!!!! It is a very sad fact that civilians die in wars, less so now thankfully. I'm sure the Dutch might have thought the cost "acceptable" had the plan worked as intended. It did not and the Allies took months to eventually get across the Rhine at the cost of even more lives from all nations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Don't put words in my mouth mate, I'm just speaking up against a clear-cut hatchet-job on a good general, I would never dream of slandering any of the fighting men. "Good General" is not in evidence. I am merely offering rebuttal to the widely held view that MG's failure was due to Monty and anything else is rarely mentioned. You ignore the fact that there was every possibility that any bridgehead made by the lightly-armed paras would get forced back by the German forces in the area. You say that XXX 'made up' the delay, but that doesn't change the fact that they were delayed, and considering the fact that by D+1 the 1st and 82nd were effectively fighting for their survival XXX was needed much sooner than the scheduled time. It was always going to be a close run thing, 1 Abn and particularly 2 Para managed to hold out for a good few days longer than planned. The failure to capture the bridge promptly was nullified completely by the tactical situation that actually developed, one which the planning did not seem to account for (landing your guys practically on top of enemy armoured formations.. for one). No failure to capture the bridge nullified the entire exercise, it was the whole point after all. Failure to capture the bridge also made the 82nd's predicament worse in that they were now fighting to their front and rear. The fact still remains that XXX Corps got to within 8 miles of the final objective and could go no further as the bridge was not yet captured. Which cost the operation a fatal 3 days. Gavin was following the orders of his superior who was with him in the field, as commanding officer of the AB corps, Browning was responsible for the tactical decisions (not saying they were incorrect). You got the wrong guy. So who exactly was in charge of the 82nd Airborne? I'll give you a hint, it certainly wasn't Browning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It was actually only the Market plan in as far as it related to the 101st Abn. This is the theory wrote in 'It Never Snows in September' in 1990, but "It was incredible! In the case was the complete enemy attack order for the operation. They showed us everything - the dropping zones, the corridor, the objectives, even the names of the divisions involved. Everything! Immediately we could see the strategic implications." I believe those who are doubting this finding, or trying to limit the plans somewhat to the 101st only, are not in good faith, trying to cover up for a magnificent SNAFU. First of all these were found on a British officer, and this suggests the glider's transported men were liaison and staff to Browning HQ. In any case I believe it wasn't difficult for the Germans to detect the intentions or choices of their enemies after a few days, since there was only one road for all those big bridges leading into Germany. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I love the way people judge the viability of an operation by its consequences. If you had a chance to end the war quickly, albeit a risky one (given the airborne contingent and one congested MSR) would you not take it? D-Day was a risky operation, should they have cancelled that? I think I'll but Sebastians book as it tries to place any conclusions on the actual capabilities of airborne operations during WWII, including the RAG grouns support/supply role. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 At the end of the operation the 21 Army Group was in possession of the larger percentage of the Netherlands and in a good position to continue operations. Sure they did not achieve full success but the gains that they made were significant. Baloney. This part of the front ceased to have any strategic significance with the failure to take the Arnhem bridge. It stagnated and the important Rhine crossings six months later occurred elsewhere. Strategically, OMG fizzled like a damp squib. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Ahem, Michael, IIRC the salient in the Netherlands was actually used to launch the March offensive due East this time instead of North: as mentioned, the crossings at Wesel etc. BTW that Op Varsity was the largest AB Operation of WWII. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Baloney. This part of the front ceased to have any strategic significance with the failure to take the Arnhem bridge. It stagnated and the important Rhine crossings six months later occurred elsewhere. Strategically, OMG fizzled like a damp squib. Yes you're right, it stayed pretty quiet and unimportant. In fact about the only things that went on were: Concentrated efforts to stabilise Antwerp and clear the Shedlt which were achieved, without fear of counter attack or resupply of the German garrison now it was cut off. This then alleviated the previous long lines of supply transport problems that allowed for further operations. The German offensive Wacht am Rhine which had the stated objective of recapturing Antwerp and severing the Allied Armies. British Forces in Holland were able to stabilise the US northern flank and commence operations to reduce the Bulge in the US line caused by Wacht am Rhine. Operations that commenced in Feb 1945, Operations Veritable, Blockbuster launched from Nijmegen and the southern US effort Operation Grenade destroyed the German forces west of the Rhine and netted in the order of 370,000 German losses. Operation Plunder/Varsity used these gains as the springboard into Germany across the Rhine. So yeh pretty quiet really........ As an interesting aside Allied casualties for Market garden were about 17k and for an ambitious plan netted a good section of the Netherlands, despite not achieving all it set out to do. The Wacht am Rhine offensive cost about 90k for being caught with our pants down. So I don't really buy that MG was a waste of manpower and resources. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I believe those who are doubting this finding, or trying to limit the plans somewhat to the 101st only, are not in good faith, trying to cover up for a magnificent SNAFU. First of all these were found on a British officer, and this suggests the glider's transported men were liaison and staff to Browning HQ. In any case I believe it wasn't difficult for the Germans to detect the intentions or choices of their enemies after a few days, since there was only one road for all those big bridges leading into Germany. Wanting conclusive proof is not really another way of saying cover up. If the documents were in a glider that was part of Browning's HQ they would have landed near Nijmegen. Those landings started at about 13:00. Can't imagine that Browning's HQ would have been in the first wave so lets say 13:30 is the earliest. Student's HQ was in Vught which is well to the West of Veghel. So the plans would have gone about 50klm, through the now landing 101 Abn in about an hour if the reports that he received them at 1425 are correct. Far more likely something was recovered from a 101 Abn glider. What ? who knows. As you say tho' blind freddy could work out what was going on, especially Student who himself was an Airborne Officer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I was also under the impression that the plans were captured from an American glider and from and American officers satchel. Is it normal to take full plans on a mission? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Absolutely NOT, but then again ALL gliders were Americans. The crashed glider may have been brought down on its way up North, not necessarily a crashed landing one. I cannot buy Student may have made up this story just to despise his former enemies. I stick to his truth and Officer's words. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Absolutely NOT, but then again ALL gliders were Americans. The crashed glider may have been brought down on its way up North, not necessarily a crashed landing one. I cannot buy Student may have made up this story just to despise his former enemies. I stick to his truth and Officer's words. Google Horsa and Hamilcar all gliders were NOT American. I've not checked but I am fairly certain Browning's HQ did not lose any gliders on the way in. Best that we check the back ground of the Student claim. I have not seen any references for it. It may not be Student who made up stuff but the interviewer or whatever may have elaborated or got their fact wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I was also under the impression that the plans were captured from an American glider and from and American officers satchel. Is it normal to take full plans on a mission? It isn't clear what was captured. I know in the movie they showed plans but that was more likely Hollywood for the masses. An operational map would be marked with were the troops are, not where they are supposed to be so in the glider they wouldn't know yet. IN most case having a full opord on you is a bit unlikely but given the compressed time frame of the operation it is certainly possible that a detailed plan of some sort was being carried by someone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 all gliders were NOT American. Indeed, my mistake: Air Transport Forces 38 and 46 Groups RAF, RASC Air Despatch Units 52nd Troop Carrier Wing, USAAF IX Troop Carrier Command (Less 52nd Wing), USAAF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 'Model came every day to my H.Q. during the battle. On the 2nd day he told me of the plans which had been found in a glider shot down near General Student's H.Q. He received the plans themselves on the third day. General Student himself spent several days at my H.Q. He was not there in a commanding capacity but merely wanted to observe the development of the battle. He was surprised that the bridges were not blown since we had the plans for the operation.' I believe you know who the Obersturmbannführer Walther Harzer is... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Indeed, my mistake: Air Transport Forces 38 and 46 Groups RAF, RASC Air Despatch Units 52nd Troop Carrier Wing, USAAF IX Troop Carrier Command (Less 52nd Wing), USAAF "The Allied glider force had been rebuilt after Normandy until by September 16 it numbered 2,160 CG-4A Waco gliders, 916 Airspeed Horsas (812 RAF and 104 US Army) and 64 General Aircraft Hamilcars." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The Brits manned and used some WACOs too, IIRC (though ... maybe that was only in Burma?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I believe you know who the Obersturmbannführer Walther Harzer is... Great that seals it. It couldn't possibly have been a glider from browning's HQ as they flew the Northern route which didn't go anywhere near Student's HQ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 The Brits manned and used some WACOs too, IIRC (though ... maybe that was only in Burma?) Burma is the only time I have seen a reference to Wacos in British service, but of course they could have had some at MG. Browning's HQ did include Waco's carrying the US Signallers. There were some Horsa's in US service, not sure why I think the Horsa was bigger so maybe some special equipment or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Great that seals it. It couldn't possibly have been a glider from browning's HQ as they flew the Northern route which didn't go anywhere near Student's HQ. Not that mistakes happened. But you have a point there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Burma is the only time I have seen a reference to Wacos in British service, but of course they could have had some at MG. Browning's HQ did include Waco's carrying the US Signallers. Yeah, it seems that 4 went in to Arnhem, also carrying a US signals team. There were some Horsa's in US service, not sure why I think the Horsa was bigger so maybe some special equipment or something. They were just better gliders. They carried more men, and crucially could carry vehicles and guns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 About the Browning HQ section I admit it is just my supposition, since who else should have been carrying the whole OP in a glider? This discussion about a proven fact is somewhat getting too far for me, and it's useless: the Germans had the plans for the whole Operation; if at first they were suspicious about their luck, the following days' actions confirmed the Allied intentions. So they were able to react with speed and efficiency, without having to wait for Berlin's approval or reinforcements. Let me know if this thread becomes another peng challenge, so I can sod off as fast as I can... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Perhaps the focus of the discussion could possibly move to the immediate need for reinforcements every minute, instead of every five, for the MG Module. For a proper scattering of the poor paras, we could use this improvement. Crashed Glider flavor object would be nice as well. Just a few CM-related thoughts for flavor, since I have re-fought OMG online enough for one lifetime. (btw imho there is plenty o blame for all concerned.. 'nuff said) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Don't forget the wire fences found in Holland that were hard to cross, Middlebrook makes a point about their effect on the canalisation of movement, especially infantry and light vehicles. Waco gliders could carry either a Jeep, trailer or pack howitzer (75mm), loaded through the upwardly hinged nose. Although the Horsa could carry more there were problems, at Arnhem, with releasing the tail sections of some of the gliders, to free the loads. As for the Hamilcar, woo that would be some flavour object, perhaps also discarded chutes as well littering the drop zones? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yes these would be nice... But please do not make me hunting for the Plans to get an extra life! I'm not really sure now if MG would be the best choice for another CM Module; I don't know, I played and studied this battle since some thirty years: played with tabletop wargames, both at tactical and strategic levels, then I replayed them all on computers... Sure it's an intriguing one: when I won as an Allied I always had to take enormous risks: I was able to reach the South approach to Arnhem bridge with the XXX Corps sometime even in four days, but just with a few recon elements and armour, leaving behind a mess of a supply and defensive corridor; even so it was like a moral boost to the beleaguered Red Devils, and I ended up with a bridgehead on the further shore of the Rhine. If that was going to be really helpful and decisive, I doubt very much. The German Army was still very strong and for the Allied was a narrow salient under direct observation and artillery difficult to keep, so even less was it to use to amass a strong force to invade the Ruhr. What instead of MG about Varsity/Plunder? We will have all the latest WWII Weaponry, Red Devils, Commandos, Waffen SS and Fallschirmjager, Pershing and King Tiger... we can always go back designing some MG scenarios using all the new units and the old. I would also miss the Normany British/Canadians battles there... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 What instead of MG about Varsity/Plunder? We will have all the latest WWII Weaponry...Pershing and King Tiger... We are promised all that stuff with the Bulge family of games. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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