Holman Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 In one of my games I'm watching a platoon of infantry do the Minefield Panic Dance: squad takes a casualty from a mine and starts running, hitting more mines along the way and causing new panic moves in new directions. Repeat until dead. Better mine field panic behavior would be to hug the ground. I would assume that, in a mine field, the panic instinct would be to stay rooted to one spot rather than running off into the mines that you now imagine all around you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Ha! That sounds awesome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I appreciate the point. Maybe it's because there's only one type of "panic" in the game, and that triggers the running-around behavior. But maybe it's not so unrealistic if you consider a couple of things: *Propensity to panic is controlled somewhat by units' quality and experience levels, if I understand correctly. So "greener" units are more likely to do this and end up running around stupidly. *It might sound like a good idea to freeze and hug the ground to avoid more mines. But soldiers know that wherever there's a minefield, there's also an MG and/or artillery pretargeted on the minefield. So as bad as a mine might be, if you freeze in place you'll be facing even worse to come, and making yourself an easy target to get pinned and mortared. It's a terrible dilemma, but which would you choose: Certain death on the spot, or run like hell out of there and some random chance of death if you happen to step on another mine? I agree though that human instinct after the first mine probably would be to hit the dirt and freeze (which is just what the enemy wants you to do). Maybe someone with actual military experience can enlighten us on this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Make the assumption you have hit the edge of minefield and retrace route seems favourite. However you may wish to use the mark One knife blade technique. I know the Australians when bored in Torbruk took to raiding the enemy lines to liberate mines for more needy people. Assuming that MGs's or mortars are certain to fire is also a moot point. It may be a left over. or a no longer covered area. Running around does not sound favourite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Behind friendly lines, engineers in a jeep take an arty shell. The survivors, who have not taken any fire since, are still running around panicked 5 minutes later! I wouldn't be so irritated, but they have some of my last satchel charges. Makes me wish there was an enemy minefield nearby... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I guess it'd be considered norty to "accidentally" drop some mortar fire on those engineers who have the goodies... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I have seen it too. It seems that the panic behaviour for minefield only casualties is out of whack with the situation but you need to remember they are panicking. A solid cohesive unit that takes a minefield casualty would usually become pinned. An already beat up unit that takes further casualties, panics, might do something dumb like run around in a minefield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 "Serpentine, serpentine!!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I know the Australians when bored in Torbruk took to raiding the enemy lines to liberate mines for more needy people. The Vietnamese returned the favour for better results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrenpeace Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Running around after hitting a minefield makes absolutely no sense and needs to be changed. The proper thing to do is go low and "be pinned" or perhaps crawl backwards slowly. I know something about this as my step-father was seriously wounded in the Huertgan Forest in a Minefield. He was blown into a mine after another soldier stepped on one. He then crawled back to the first soldier and gave him first aid despite his own leg being severely mangled. The horrific part was that he was stuck in the minefield another 6 hours until nightfall because they were under german artillery fire. Won a bronze star for his action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The game has a "pinned" condition, so I don't see why BF couldn't fix this in a patch: Units that explode a mine on a minefield should take maybe a slight morale hit, but have a very high chance (nearly always) of getting "pinned." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The observed behaviour is not unrealistic IMO. Not sure what the SOPs were in WWII, I am betting they were to push on thru regardless of cas. The reason for not hitting the ground is that minefields are normally covered by fire. Stopping inside one in combat normally means you are going to die, whereas pushing thru means some of the squad makes it thru. The jiggy-of-death is more of a pathfinding issue if anything but if a squad breaks due to too many hits and panics it could very well set off more mines by trying to get out. If the squad were to stay put as "pinned" MGs or mortars would pound them until they do break and run..and back to jiggy-of-death. My advice on minefields to scout/bypass OR breach. Even when marked move thru with caution (ie SLOW or MOVE) and also with plenty of covering fire and smoke. Like wire they are lethal and suppose to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 If we're looking for realism, I think units who *do* panic in minefield should freeze (regardless of SOP). It's true that wise and well-ordered soldiers would try to get out of the minefield rather than stay put. But the real-world panic response in a minefield is going to be "OMG Every step means death!" rather than "Run around screaming." It's a nit-picky point, I know. Does CMBN even distinguish between "sources" of panic? Is it possible to program different loss-of-control responses to different stimuli? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 If we're looking for realism, I think units who *do* panic in minefield should freeze (regardless of SOP). It's true that wise and well-ordered soldiers would try to get out of the minefield rather than stay put. But the real-world panic response in a minefield is going to be "OMG Every step means death!" rather than "Run around screaming." It's a nit-picky point, I know. Does CMBN even distinguish between "sources" of panic? Is it possible to program different loss-of-control responses to different stimuli? Been in a minefield. Tough call. The blind urge to run out the way you came is pretty strong and we hadn't taken a cas. We did stop but had been rigourously trained to do so and breach our way out but that was a different situation. I cannot imagine the guts and discipline it takes to keep moving forward under fire...been in a lot of bad situations but thankfully never that one. I think the panic response is generic and goes to pin and then run-like hell. I have seen both types of behaviour in a minefield. A squad leader breaking and running back out and his squad following him is not an unrealistic scenario. Neither is hitting another mine. What could need tweaking is that when "breaking" troops usually turn 180 degrees...if you are in a minefield you get into a sit where if the squad gets hit, tries to run out of the minefield and takes another hit, it turns around and tries to run back thru the minefield. So more of a pathfinding issue to my mind. In real life getting caught in a minefield in combat is a recipe for a full blown monkey cluster-f^ck, I think the game delivers on this but there is probably room for some tweaking as it is probably showing the worst outcome right now. Think I will test this one somewhat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrenpeace Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 In the game I was playing I had eliminated all the units firing at my guys and then had a unit stumble into the mine field. As soon as it did it, the guys started running around like a chicken with their heads cut off. This was not rationale behavior given the circumstances. On the other hand, had the unit been under fire, then it might not be so stupid, although you probably would try and run out the way you came. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 In the game I was playing I had eliminated all the units firing at my guys and then had a unit stumble into the mine field. As soon as it did it, the guys started running around like a chicken with their heads cut off. This was not rationale behavior given the circumstances. On the other hand, had the unit been under fire, then it might not be so stupid, although you probably would try and run out the way you came. The problem here is that those troops do not definitively know there is not more covering fire out there. You might as the player but your troops wouldn't. In training they would have been trained to push thru and treat every minefield as if it were covered. Again I see a possible pathfinding issue that keeps driving broken squads back into the minefield, which does not make sense. Having them break and run right out does. Although if this part of a larger behaviour while breaking issue, I suspect we will have to live with it. I for one am very happy with AP minefields in CMBN. Far more accurate effect than what I saw in CMx1 in terms of supression and lethality. How this is portrayed in-game could be another issue. Will run a few tests this weekend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 ok, finally had my first experience with minefields. my troups didn't run away, but i had 2 different minefield encounters with different teams and both times they took 3 casualties each. seems a bit excessive considering we can't give orders to spread out, etc... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 ok, finally had my first experience with minefields. my troups didn't run away, but i had 2 different minefield encounters with different teams and both times they took 3 casualties each. seems a bit excessive considering we can't give orders to spread out, etc... Spreading out won't do much good to be honest. In reality it depends on the type of mine hit. Your basic toe popper is a one-man affair. The German S-mine, precursor to the M16 Bounding Betty could wipe out a squad and had a lethal radius of 20m and a danger radius of up to 140m, making spreading out the squad kind of useless. Toe poppers have to do with linear density, again spreading out makes things worse as each troop faces the same linear density, whereas if you try and go thru single file the lead man faces the highest but as he trips one, the density drops for follow on troops. A good AP minefield will have a mix to basically screw any approach. In CMBN mines are abstracted but 30% cas is not out of whack across a 10-12 man squad as an average. On a bad day you could see 50-75%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I think at this stage of the game it might be a bit of a reach to have our pixeltruppen respond in different ways to their level of suppression based on their situation, I mean the variables in each instance are going to be huge. Minefield Run or Freeze?, Tank approaching you foxhole run or freeze ?, Ambush run or freeze? etc there are pros and cons for each action in each case. Maybe this is one of those tricky areas where, as we are in the nexus between a generalised wargame and a individually modelled sim there has to be a few things that happen that may not be 100% accurate. I guess the next stage is to individually rate each soldier for morale, training, experience, bad news form home, sleepy, bit off colour this morning etc and have them respond as most likely for someone of those characteristics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I noticed this in a PBEM match I'm playing. I have no units watching the minefield, eventhough I should have. Enemy hits the minefield, I see explosions. I send a few units to the minefield to see if I can kill/wound the Americans caught in the minefield. What do I see? Bodies everywhere, like the units did exactly as described above - ran around all crazy-like only to cause more casualties. An entire platoon almost wiped out. I may win this scenario precisely because of this behavior. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.