88's as off map arty

[Humble Badger]

First off forgive my noobness in these matters. I have searched the forums and google, but I can't find any good reference to using 88's as indirect artillery. I experimented with it quite effectively in a QB, but I was just wondering about the historical accuracy of doing so. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

This is not a criticism in any way just curious as to how this came to be a function of the game.

I love this game! My pal and I were playing against each other in the dining room h2h on laptops this weekend and my wife commented that we looked like very happy kids on Christmas morning.

Thanks.

[YankeeDog]

IIRC, while not designed for the role, FlaK 88s were pressed into job of indirect ground fire on a number of occasions by the Germans, often enough that their inclusion in the Game as in indirect artillery asset is probably warranted.

[Vark]

They were particularly feared in this role due to the high velocity shells exploding before the sound of their arrival or report of the gun, giving no advance warning.

[Runyan99]

I dunno. I suspect they were rarely used in this role. I would think the gun and their crews were poorly equipped and prepared for this type of fire. On the other hand, GIs tended to call everything incoming from 75mm to 105mm arty incorrectly as "88s".

[rune]

I did research on this, and the 88mm was used as artillery, especially at the beaches. Here is what I quoted:

Yep, here is the passage:

There were three methods of fire control, by radar or predictor though a data transmission system for AA fire, direct laying through the sights for the anti-tank role, and indirect fire in conjunction with a range-finder.

Also here:

(4) Fire control. The gun may be laid on the target by three methods :

(a) Indirect laying, by matching the pointers of the data receivers, which are controlled by the director (the Kommandogerat)

( Direct laying, by means of the Flak ZF 20-E telescopic sight. Vertical and lateral deflections are applied to the telescope, and the man at the azimuth handwheel puts the cross hairs on the target. The gun is elevated by the man on the elevation handwheel, who follows an indicating arm which moves with the sight.© The dial sight may be used for laying the gun in azimuth, while the quadrant elevation is set in by the elevation man as ordered.

For good information, here is the website:

http://www.efour4ever.com/88.htm

[LemoN]

The Americans used their M10's in an indirect role in Italy.

Generally people will use anything they get their hands on to use it as artillery and I suspect that guns like the Flak 36 didn't fare too bad in the role.

[MikeyD]

Unfortunately we can't rely on contemporary allied accounts because in their minds everything that that went 'BOOM' was an 88. I've got a collection of contemporary accounts from a Brit Churchill ballaion and I'm struck how German machineguns were invariably referred to as "Spandaus".

[Vark]

I have seen countless images/film of 88's being used as artillery (barrel elevated to 45 degrees or higher), whether direct or indirect I don't know but the elevation suggests targets at a considerable distance.

Spandau was the generic name, used by the British, for MG-34's/42's that hardly invalidates accounts of artillery that exploded, then the shells approach was heard, then the guns report. The accounts I have at hand are of fighting around Tobruk, but my late Grand Father in law remembered similar occasions in Italy, of rounds arriving with no warning away from the front lines. In the Tobruk account the veteran could not understand where the shells came from untill he saw photos, after the war of an 88mm emplaced behind hill 209, to shoot indirectly at their positions.

[Vark]

Good link to a TMP thread on just this subject.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=223367

[gunnergoz]

Rune:

I think the item in 4a in your post refers to AA indirect fire, under control of a centralized fire director, as opposed to AA direct fire using the gun's own telescopic sights.

Indirect artillery fire is something else and though the 88 may well have been used this way now and again, it would not have been controlled by the kommandogerat, which was an AA battery control device, much like this one: http://www.ww2incolor.com/german-artillery/DO-46%23.html

88's firing in the indirect artillery role would have been plotted and directed through a conventional artillery fire control center IMHO. That probably would have required special training of the crews. Given the pressing need for 88's in the AA and AT role, I suspect the occasions when it was used in the indirect artillery fire role were relatively few.

[gunnergoz]

I have seen countless images/film of 88's being used as artillery (barrel elevated to 45 degrees or higher), whether direct or indirect I don't know but the elevation suggests targets at a considerable distance. (snip)

With all respect to veterans' recollections, my sense is that 88's were only rarely pressed into action as indirect artillery. There may have been unusual circumstances that dictated such use but probably not as many as Allied soldiers thought. The guns were so much in demand for AA and AT work that I suspect they were mostly used in those roles. There is also the fact that indirect fire requires the crew to be specially trained for it, including learning coordination with an artillery fire control center.

As to the photos of 88's elevated at a 45 degree angle, that would have been a normal ready position for an alert AA crew.

On the other hand there is ample documented evidence of US tank destroyers being used in the indirect artillery role. They were trained in this technique as part of the army's overall TD utilization doctrine; here's a nice reference with a link to an actual WW2 TD indirect fire data card: http://www.tankdestroyer.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=433:tank-destroyers-as-assult-guns-a-indirect-fire-pocket-reference-fa-journal-april-1945&catid=40:tdarticles&Itemid=86

[MikeyD]

I don't have my references next to me, what was the lifespan of the 88's rifling? 5-600 rounds, something like 1/2 or 1/3rd the lifespan of a normal artilery tube perhaps? I suppose a commander might decide to expend the last of his ammuniion in the general direction of the enemy before eventually surrendering. But otherwise that seems like a high-cost HE chucker.

[Bastables]

If any one has access to zetterlings book on Normandy there should a bit when dealing with the deployment of the Luftwaffe flak korp being setup to fire indirectly in defense of Caen. Logically if the aa units are emplaced to defend againt airpower they're not going to be emplaced on the front lines to do anti tank work.

Also the Germans had quite a good ratio of guns to rifle men but relatively little ammunition compounded by many units using captured soviet guns and their different ammunition requirements, coupled with the planning of supply by rail verses the actuality of allied air power blowing up trains and bridges ammo shortages had a real effect in not enough arty support. The British also noted poor German counter battey work, which ties in to the limited ammunition and the paucity of 17cm guns earmarked for such work. All these factors ment that at least at flak Corp level 88s were used in defensive plans as artillery.

[JonS]

... Zetterlings book on Normandy ...

You read my mind.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040920012844/http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/othghq/3flak.html

[JasonC]

88 Flak was used in a number of formations in Normandy in place of unavailable div arty, notably in some of the FJ formations. Ketterling's OOB for the German army in Normandy has details.

PS it was not just the Flak corps described on the page others have cited. A number of divisions had them in place of standard TOE 105s in the divisional artillery regiments. But yes, Ketterling is the best source on the matter...

[Vark]

As to the photos of 88's elevated at a 45 degree angle, that would have been a normal ready position for an alert AA crew.

Nope, these guns were being used as artillery, crews throwing in rounds, no rangefinders no sign of enemy air activity etc.

3:27-3:43min into this clip, for example in Russia 43

Or the opening stages of Wacht Am Rhein 0:40-45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYLo2bJhAnE

[JonS]

You need to be very very careful about applying context to any photo or video when there simply isn't any evidence to support it. Too often we see what we want to see in images.

[Michael Emrys]

The 88 was often used in an anti-personnel role, but usually in a direct fire mode. Either the gun crew could see and identify the target or it was pointed out to them in a general way by someone who could (in game terms, area fire).

Michael

[rune]

Yes, my reference sources match what JasonC says, not only the Fjs, but other units. Supposedly the Americans used some 88s in the indirect fire mode for counter-battery fire also, but I do NOT have reliable references for that.

Rune

[rune]

Also found this:

There were some 8.8cm Flak units that were given a panzer jager role and removed their anti aircraft aiming equipment. They also did not take their range finders and predictors with them so trying to fire in an anti aircraft role would have been very difficult.

As Carl as said a normal battery would in seconds switch from one role to another. The 8.8cm Flak 18 had three types of sight, direct fire telescope mainly for for firing at tanks or bunkers, the follow the dial sights used with the range finder and predictor for anti aircraft fire and a dial sight for indirect fire. Whan the battery went into action the postion of each gun would have been orientated and then information recorded in the predictor. If your going to tell a gun where to shoot and what time the fuze needs to explode the shell you need to know where it is. While doing this it is a couple of seconds extra work to set the dial sight up for indirect fire should the battery be expected to give fire support to ground units. Even if this was not done, with an anti aircraft gun it would still be able to fire indirect using the predictor and the follow the dial aiming equipment once the information on where the target is has been recieved from the observer.

Rune

[Blackcat]

Unfortunately we can't rely on contemporary allied accounts because in their minds everything that that went 'BOOM' was an 88. I've got a collection of contemporary accounts from a Brit Churchill ballaion and I'm struck how German machineguns were invariably referred to as "Spandaus".

Not a battalion, surely. Brit armour (and artillery) never has had battalions. Regments, yes, but never battalions that is an infantry formation.

*Wrestles Mr. Flaming Picky back into his box*

[Bastables]

Also found this:

There were some 8.8cm Flak units that were given a panzer jager role and removed their anti aircraft aiming equipment. They also did not take their range finders and predictors with them so trying to fire in an anti aircraft role would have been very difficult.

As Carl as said a normal battery would in seconds switch from one role to another. The 8.8cm Flak 18 had three types of sight, direct fire telescope mainly for for firing at tanks or bunkers, the follow the dial sights used with the range finder and predictor for anti aircraft fire and a dial sight for indirect fire. Whan the battery went into action the postion of each gun would have been orientated and then information recorded in the predictor. If your going to tell a gun where to shoot and what time the fuze needs to explode the shell you need to know where it is. While doing this it is a couple of seconds extra work to set the dial sight up for indirect fire should the battery be expected to give fire support to ground units. Even if this was not done, with an anti aircraft gun it would still be able to fire indirect using the predictor and the follow the dial aiming equipment once the information on where the target is has been recieved from the observer.

Rune

That would be the specilist FlaK Korp anti tank troop, think it was no more than 8 guns and saw action during Operation Goodwood? Zetterling points out the unit only joined the perent formation when FlaK Korp III reached Normandy and was so new that they had to be held back for training for their role until their first disastrous operations against the Goodwood attacks.

[Magpie_Oz]

The problems with 88's in the "indirect" role is that they do not have separate loading ammunition therefore there is only 2 ways engage a target; fire on a direct flat trajectory, which means you can't fire over things or fire in a high plunging trajectory.

The problem with the high trajectory is that, as it is an AA gun, it has a colossal altitude, some 39,000', so the effects on the accuracy by the upper level atmosphere would be huge and the gun would end up wildly inaccurate.

[rune]

Magpie, actually not...more on that in a bit.

TM E9-369A: German 88-mm Antiaircraft Gun Materiel

Technical Manual, War Department, June 29, 1943

[DISCLAIMER: The following text is taken from a WWII U.S. War Department Technical Manual. As with all manuals, the text may be incomplete or inaccurate. No attempt has been made to update or correct the contents of the original technical manual. Any views or opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the website.]

CHAPTER 4

SIGHTING AND FIRE CONTROL EQUIPMENT

Section I

INTRODUCTION

ParagraphIntroduction ..................................................................................................73

73. INTRODUCTION.

a. The sighting and fire control equipment for the 8.8 cm Flak 18 or 36 varies, depending on the use to which the weapon is put. The gun may be used for direct fire as in antitank work, for indirect fire, or for antiaircraft fire.

b. For direct fire the telescopic sight ZF.20E (Zielfernrohr 20E) is used for laying the gun in azimuth and elevation. This sight, consisting of elbow telescope, telescope mount, and range drum is mounted on a bracket geared to the elevation quadrant on the right-hand side of the top carriage. The gun is laid in elevation by matching its pointer on the elevation quadrant against a pointer controlled by the telescopic sight.

c. The gun may be laid in azimuth and elevation against aircraft, moving ground or sea targets in accordance with data obtained from a director. Either of two directors may be used. The stereoscopic director Kdo. Gr. 36 (Kommandogerät 36) connects electrically to the on-carriage equipment for blackout dial matching. The auxiliary director Kdo. Hi. Gr. 35 (Kommandohilfsgerät 35) develops data which are telephoned to the gun crew. It is much lighter than the Kdo. Gr. 36 and is intended for mobile use. It is designed to be carried by porter bar.

d. When the stereoscopic director Kdo. Gr. 36 is used, the off carriage equipment includes a distribution box; a switchboard with battery source of power for telephone and transmission of data; cables connecting the director to the distribution box, switchboard, and guns. The on-carriage equipment includes the instruments listed below:

(1) The panoramic telescope Rbl. F. 32 (Rundblickfernrohr 32) which is placed in a telescope holder on the top of the recuperator for initial orientation of the guns with the director.

(2) The azimuth indicator.

(3) The elevation indicator.

(4) The fuze setter.

(5) On-carriage wiring and boxes.

e. When the auxiliary director Kdo. Hi. Gr. 35 is used, a 4-meter range finder (separately connected) furnishes slant range.

f. Information is not available on the switchboard, the off-carriage cables, or the height finder telescopes of the Kdo. Gr. 36.

[JonS]

Not a battalion, surely. Brit armour (and artillery) never has had battalions. Regments, yes, but never battalions that is an infantry formation.

That's not correct. The British had many tank 'battalions', in addition to their armoured 'regiments'. RTR and the Guards, for example, had their own idiosyncratic ideas about nomenclature. Just as the Welch have some funny ideas about spelling.