LongLeftFlank Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I opened an earlier thread on this topic, but decided to restart it here in the appropriate subforum. Please refer to that thread for additional information. Roughly, this campaign will depict the series of bloody (and often fruitless) attacks through heavily fortified villes and hedgerows north of St Lo from 11-14 July 1944 by the green troops of 3/137th Infantry, 35th ID ("Santa Fe"). Those familiar with my CMSF work on Ramadi will know that I go extremely "deep" into the historical research, with the intent of trying to put the player "in the boots" of the men on the ground as much as possible, facing the real world tactical dilemmas and powerfully incented to use real world tactics. That is, once I understand them myself.... I also go to ridiculous lengths to try to get the ground itself absolutely right. So don't expect this project to be completed anytime soon -- in fact, you may all be through Holland by the time I finish up. In which case it will make an interesting return for you. Anyway, below is the area I intend to map out to create a large "master" map for the campaign (it will be a 3 x4 km rectangle of course, but I won't do much in the area outside the jagged border). I will then carve out smaller submaps for the campaign scenarios. The general purpose of this thread is to share screenies, lessons learned, and other updates. Input welcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Just in case you are not aware of this http://www.oldhickory30th.com/StFromondGeneralMap.jpg P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Awesome. Can't wait to play! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Just in case you are not aware of this http://www.oldhickory30th.com/StFromondGeneralMap.jpg P You know, I had indeed seen this map before, and forgotten about it. That and the Carillon sheet, plus the postwar aerial imagery and the current Google Maps (you can still see craters in some of the fields!) should be all I need. The Internet is truly an amazing resource (in spite of the "signal to noise" ratio) -- last night I tracked down the daily AARs and logs for the tank (737th) and TD (654th) battalions that supported 137th IR in these fights. Cheers! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Longleft, We should definitely cooperate, because we share exactly the same philosophy about mapping and historical fidelity, etc. My longterm project fits pretty well alongside yours, because here's the AO I had marked out to work on: I found that the area from the Vire River east to the St. Lo-Bayeux highway falls pretty well into a 2km x 4 km map and two 4 x 4 maps. Your Carillon area would be within that 2 x 4 km area, so I'll concentrate on the 4x4 areas. That gives us the entire area where the 35th ID (and a little of the 29th) faced the German 352nd ID from July 11 until St. Lo fell. If you're interested and want to try and have your E edges match up (at least approximately) to my W edges, the GPS coordinates of my map boundaries are as follows: For the 4x4 map on the upper right: NW corner: Latitude 49.180033 Longitude -1.086301 SW corner: Latitude 49.144603 Longitude -1.100560 For the 4x4 map at the bottom (the one with St Lo in it): NW corner: Latitude 49.146944 Longitude -1.114207 The corner where the N edge joins the SE corner of skinny map: (same coordinates as SW of previous map) Like you, I may be ready for eldercare by the time it's finished -- especially because I see I'll be enjoying just playing CMBN for quite awhile. I may also wait a bit for some tips and tutorials to come out to make the map editor a bit easier to use -- I'm sure the community and BF will explain a lot more about how to use it as time goes on. Finally, please let me know of any other good mapping resources you find for these areas. I've already used the French 1947 aerial photos, and found some AAR maps, but it's always good to share sources. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Guys a word of warning 4k x 4 k at that level of detail will most likely ground your pc to a halt. I've built a 2k x 2k and it was hard work towards the end to work on it in the editor. P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Bwahahahaha!!!! You're talking to the man who mapped a 1 x 2km densely built up strip of downtown Ramadi (estimate 8,000 separate buildings plus an equal number of flavour objects) on 2 6 year old PCs. And never crashed once, although it DID get a little poky sometimes. My philosophy in building Brobdignagian "master" maps is that (a) you can always carve them up into small submaps -- easier to delete details than add them; ( it encourages you to look at the map "as it is" as opposed to trying to build a little game-specific maze for your players; © PC power grows every year and someday they will develop a PC that can confound even Charles! So someday we will all be able to play full regiment-sized CM H2H actions online on monster maps with full CoPlay. While wearing shiny silver clothing and eating meals in pill form in our hover cars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 And also (I don't know if this would make a difference, but it should) -- my plan was to get the basic 4 x 4 area contoured and then lay down just the basic land pattern (water, various colors of land tiles, roads, forests, major landmarks like churches with tall steeples) and omit all the detailed and flavor stuff. I'd save that as the basic starter template. Then, for specific scenarios, I would open the template, define a smaller battle map from that larger one and really get it fully detailed, as needed. Does that seem feasible, Longleftflank and Pete? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Longleft, We should definitely cooperate, because we share exactly the same philosophy about mapping and historical fidelity, etc. My longterm project fits pretty well alongside yours, because here's the AO I had marked out to work on: I found that the area from the Vire River east to the St. Lo-Bayeux highway falls pretty well into a 2km x 4 km map and two 4 x 4 maps. Your Carillon area would be within that 2 x 4 km area, so I'll concentrate on the 4x4 areas. That gives us the entire area where the 35th ID (and a little of the 29th) faced the German 352nd ID from July 11 until St. Lo fell. If you're interested and want to try and have your E edges match up (at least approximately) to my W edges, the GPS coordinates of my map boundaries are as follows: For the 4x4 map on the upper right: NW corner: Latitude 49.180033 Longitude -1.086301 SW corner: Latitude 49.144603 Longitude -1.100560 For the 4x4 map at the bottom (the one with St Lo in it): NW corner: Latitude 49.146944 Longitude -1.114207 The corner where the N edge joins the SE corner of skinny map: (same coordinates as SW of previous map) Like you, I may be ready for eldercare by the time it's finished -- especially because I see I'll be enjoying just playing CMBN for quite awhile. I may also wait a bit for some tips and tutorials to come out to make the map editor a bit easier to use -- I'm sure the community and BF will explain a lot more about how to use it as time goes on. Finally, please let me know of any other good mapping resources you find for these areas. I've already used the French 1947 aerial photos, and found some AAR maps, but it's always good to share sources. Sir, I am definitely all over this idea. I will send you a PM with my email address and we can coordinate! Also, looks from your screenie like I need to recheck the scale units on the map I posted in my OP..... might have used the wrong yards to meters conversion factor. :*) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I'm not saying don't go for it, but it's an awful lot of work 1k x 2k = 2square kilometres 4k x 4k = 16square kilometres There are a lot more action spots !!! Broadsword your idea might work, but at the same time it might just be easier to allocate the battle areas and just build them. I might suggest having a go at 1k x 1k map and see how it goes. Either way I'll watch this with interest P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I'm not saying don't go for it, but it's an awful lot of work 1k x 2k = 2square kilometres 4k x 4k = 16square kilometres There are a lot more action spots !!! Broadsword your idea might work, but at the same time it might just be easier to allocate the battle areas and just build them. I might suggest having a go at 1k x 1k map and see how it goes. Either way I'll watch this with interest P I appreciate your warnings, Pete -- the reason I'd like to do it my way is that I'm intending to use it in conjunction with a campaign (using a board wargame as the op layer). So battles could be fought anywhere in the area -- I'd wait until an interesting situation develops, then just make a battle/scenario map in detail for that particular sector. I probably never would map the entire 4x4 area in detail, but at least each smaller maps I'd make would add more and more pieces to the overall project. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blow56 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Good project - look forward to it. I only hope that you don't follow whoever did the Quick Maps with no idea how Normandy looked. Their idea of bocage is far too open and all their little hamlets and farms look straight from rural Kentucky circa American Civil War. This is Europe, people. Normandy. Fought over for generations, where each farm complex is a mini-fortress, built on three sides and high walled in, which is why they were such trouble to attackers. Villages are tightly-based round a village square, usually with a church, certainly with an inn/restaurant/hotel and narrow streets branching from one main thoroughfare. And bocage fields are SMALL with a lot of orchards, which is why calvados was so plentiful. They are not great expanses of cropland, either, but grazing for cattle. Which is how come every other picture from Normandy 1944 shows a DEAD COW! Just a thought ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 LLF - or Broadsword - you might be interested in the "Hill 192 terrain study" here: https://public.me.com/yeide 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I think the QB maps were intended to be a little more generic. The campaigns have enough bocage to hold most folks. And I am sure they will all be released as separate maps eventually. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Good project - look forward to it. I only hope that you don't follow whoever did the Quick Maps with no idea how Normandy looked. Their idea of bocage is far too open and all their little hamlets and farms look straight from rural Kentucky circa American Civil War. This is Europe, people. Normandy. Fought over for generations, where each farm complex is a mini-fortress, built on three sides and high walled in, which is why they were such trouble to attackers. Villages are tightly-based round a village square, usually with a church, certainly with an inn/restaurant/hotel and narrow streets branching from one main thoroughfare. And bocage fields are SMALL with a lot of orchards, which is why calvados was so plentiful. They are not great expanses of cropland, either, but grazing for cattle. Which is how come every other picture from Normandy 1944 shows a DEAD COW! Yes, the farms and towns in some of the QB maps do look a little "naked" like 1800s postcards of New England towns with only a picket fence and 99% of nearby trees cut down. My other beef is that pretty much all forests need to have an opaque wall of bushes (small trees) at the edge of them. They only "open up" once you get into the mature stands. On the other hand, some of the other maps are works of art, and I humbly abase myself before them..... This is why I have been beating the drums for a "copy-paste" feature so that those of us who want to built copses or spinneys (can you tell I've been reading A.A. Milne to my child? -- to the devil with that Disney rubbish!) or walled Norman farms in excruciating detail down to the last rotten turnip can provide a ready made supply of templates for those who prefer to focus on the OB and the AI plans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Right, here's my proposed area pushed out another km east (4 x 4) to flange up against Broadsword's project. Looks like our maps actually flange up pretty well at this point, B. My eastern edge seems to slightly overlap your square maps. It isn't exact, but pretty close. One question -- can you provide your "standard elevation"? What contour line equates to your 20m default level? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 One question -- can you provide your "standard elevation"? What contour line equates to your 20m default level? Looks great -- as long as the edges are close, no worries. I don't have anything made in the CMBN editor yet, so can you explain to me what my "20m default level" is? The contour lines I made on Google Earth are every 5 meters, starting at 5m and ending at 140m. The entire AO, including your map, has its lowest point just NW of La Meauffe in the Vire valley, and rises from there to the SE. In my upper right 4 x 4 map, the lowest contour line is a 15m one that loops around just a bit of the NW corner. But my 20m contour for that map looks like this -- just a bit up in the NW part of it: Everything else on that map is higher and it peaks out on Martinville Ridge with a 140m contour. So, to clarify: I'd probably start my top 4x4 map with a base elevation of 10m in the NW corner point and then let the editor slope it up to my first contour (15m.) The actual water on my map is minimal - just a few small ponds and brooks -- are all way higher than 0 or 10m, so I plan to use marsh terrain for those. On the bottom St Lo 4 x 4 map, the 20m contour is right near the river. But the area up in the NW corner bordering your map is all in the 65m - 85m range. At its lowest point, the Vire river hits the W edge of that map at about 10m. So that's a good default base elevation there, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted by LongLeftFlank One question -- can you provide your "standard elevation"? What contour line equates to your 20m default level? I'd go with matching editor map heights to RL heights - a lesson learnt the hard way. It makes it so much easier to keep control of. P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Good thought, Pete. I built out 4 x 4 and it takes about 8 mins to load even with no terrain. 2x3 is far more manageable so I'll start with that for the core campaign battlespace (Le Meauffe to the main road plus the Le Carillon defenses) and have built it in sucb a way that I can add enough distance in the correct directions. For those interested, you can superimpose a grid on a source map image using the Gimp freeware program. It's a matter of scaling the image ( pixels) to a multiple of squares needed (e.g. A 2km wide map extends 250 x 8m squares) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blow56 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 More to the point - I see the CMBN Campaign script is identical to CMSF and have made a campaign using a CMSF template script. It was accepted, made a campaign and seemed to function well enough - except for the re-supply, reinforcement schedule. With a two-day difference to the Germans, I would have expected some wounded, or reduced units - but they were all back to full strength. Anyone know if the CMSF script file works fully? And, if not, is there a copiable CMBN campaign script file? You can't copy/paste the one in the online manual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 22, 2011 Author Share Posted May 22, 2011 Update: last night I laid out the footprint of the Vire river and 90% of the 10m contour lines for the 2 km x 3 km "core map". No other features yet except the La Meauffe rail depot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 For those interested, here's an early shot of the 137th Infantry's front (2.5km) on 11 July, with the key German positions marked. Not much detail yet but the general contours are done and you can see how Le Carillon (far left -- sorry the pic is fuzzy!) dominates the map. The map is also cut by a number of wooded draws containing small creeks that drain into the Vire; these will be tactically critical, as will be the sunken roads and the railbeds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 And here's the only spot I've done in any detail; the watermill near St Gilles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Bravo, LLF! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handihoc Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Really looking forward to this! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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