Things in CMSF you'll be glad are in CMBN

[LeeW]

Steve specifically said that both sides were treated the same now to prevent players from having an indestructible barrier for their vehicles to hide behind. Presumably, in CMBN, if you can shoot through your tank, so can the enemy.

Blocking LOS in both directions doesn't make much sense. What if you have a taller vehicle (a PzIV) behind a shorter one (Stug)? What if the rear-most vehicle is higher in elevation than the front-most vehicle? In these cases should LOS still be blocked? Blocking line of sight just doesn't make sense.

It's an imperfect solution, but it seems than making dead vehicles "ghosts" is the only way to get a level playing field and prevent gamey abuse of dead vehicles (other than fixing the issue outright, which it seems is more difficult than it would appear).

I meant LOF instead of LOS. Typo there, sorry. LOF is blocked both ways through the vehicles. Now about a vehicle being taller or some part of it showing then maybe that could be targeted, it seems to be possible in other circumstances or at least any part that is not hidden can be hit. Whether that also means it can be targeted, I don't know. If your gun was above the other vehicle in height then that would be like hull down. I think the issue is targeting through vehicles which has been addressed. Now a shell can go through a vehicle that you are targeting, but that happens sometimes, you just can't target through them.

I guess when we get the game we will know for sure.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, damned typos! Here's how it used to work, early in CM:SF. I'll specify that first THEN specify what changed...

Early in CM:SF friendly units did not block LOS or LOF. Enemy units, dead or alive, did. The inability to block friendly fire has to do with the near impossible task of having TacAI, LOS/LOF checks, and user interface all work in a way to not completely piss off the player. It's a MASSIVE amount of work to even get it to be half of what users expect. So it's far better to just acknowledge our limitations and work around the problem instead of fudge things up by trying to half ass it.

A particular scenario in the Demo, Smashing Steel (which I authored), had a tendency for AI controlled Red tanks to seek cover behind their dead brethren. The Blue tanks would pump round after round into the covering hulk while the tank behind it had the freedom to engage the Blue tanks without restrictions. Often times the Blue SABOT rounds would go through and take out the hiding tank, but not always. And it just looked wrong no matter what.

After some consideration we decided to allow LOF through dead vehicles for BOTH sides when the targets are other vehicles. This eliminated the one sided protection of a dead vehicle. Now both vehicles shoot at each other as if the dead vehicle isn't there.

This has been true for at least 3 years, so it's a very well tested concept that has produced no complaints (unlike the original behavior).

CM:BN puts a slightly new twist on this. Smoking dead vehicles now block LOS in both directions. This means you can hide behind a burning vehicle, but you can't engage through it from either side. That's because if you can't establish LOS then you can't establish LOF.

Clear now?

Steve

[ClarkWGriswold]

Thanks for the clarification, Steve. That helps clear things up.

Just one more thing, if you could please: How does this apply to infantry, tank guns, and non-vehicle units? Let's say I've got a dead Sherman (not smoking) and I sneak a squad of infantry up behind it. Will an enemy Panzer be able to see my troops through the Sherman? Will an enemy Panzer be able to shoot small arms fire through the Sherman at my troops (even if he's aiming at something else)? Will an enemy Panzer be able to shoot AT/HE rounds through the Sherman at my troops, since they are not a vehicle target? Will the Sherman block the effects of a mortar landing on the opposite side? It seems as though dead vehicles ONLY allow shots to go through them if the intended target of those shots is another vehicle, but I want to make sure I understand completely.

[herr_oberst]

What if you have a taller vehicle (a PzIV) behind a shorter one (Stug)? What if the rear-most vehicle is higher in elevation than the front-most vehicle? In these cases should LOS still be blocked? Blocking line of sight just doesn't make sense.

Lending a whole new interpretation to the term "hull-down"...

[Vanir Ausf B]

If I understand correctly, non-smoking wrecks never block LOS, only LOF. If that is the case I assume the TacAI is smart enough to know it can't shoot though the wreck even though it can see through it.

I think Steve was pretty clear that vehicles have LOF to each other through non-smoking wrecks, and that vehicles do not have LOF through non-smoking wrecks to non-vehicular units. What's not clear to me is if that last part is reciprocal, i.e. would those non-vehicular units have LOF through the wreck to the tank. My guess is that they would because it seems that only the target's unit type matters (vehicle or non-vehicle). The firing unit type is irrelevant.

[noxnoctum]

Well... one of the things I really like is the ability to give fire orders off of movement orders (as many as you want!) so you can setup a whole platoon in advance for instance to bound with suppressing fire on a building from a different squad every 50 meters as an example. I also like being able to change a movement order by clicking on it (and not having to click on the unit itself and re-issue the order)

That said, I REALLY REALLY miss the ability to move waypoints by clicking on them. That's very irritating. I also wish there was some sort of "faster hunt" move... something you'd use for room clearing a lot. Like something that wouldn't be like "move to contact" but instead be "move cautiously with guns up but keep advancing"... if that makes sense.

It got really annoying for me sometimes when I issued hunt orders to some squad moving through for example an orchard or something with minimal visibility and they would stop moving when one of my MGs opened up on some infantry unit 600 meters away they couldn't even see. Yes I know I can use hunt with an arc and so avoid that... but I don't want my infantry to only be lpaying attention to threats 60 degrees forward! (most of the time).

Also I think the assault command is nice and a good shortcut in RT (as opposed to splitting the squad), but until the suppressing fire team doesn't get "suppressed" by the assault team getting fired on it's kinda useless.

And though it still has plenty of issues, I look forward to seeing all the unique individual infantry units in 1-1... such a huge variety... I can't wait for all the modules and OSTFRONT to come out . I REALLY can't wait to look down and see my Ruskie mechanized SMG squad all toting their delicious PPShs.

And of course seeing the vehicles rendered much more beautifully will be nice.

I also GREATLY look forward to being able to put whatever units I want under the command of whatever I want in QBs (attaching a Sherman under the command of an infantry platoon leader for example). That's really really cool IMO.

Oh wait but some of the above wasn't in CMSF... oh well .

[ClarkWGriswold]

If I understand correctly, non-smoking wrecks never block LOS, only LOF. If that is the case I assume the TacAI is smart enough to know it can't shoot though the wreck even though it can see through it.

I don't think that is correct. It seems to me that vehicles are treated as an obstruction (both visually and physically) unless one vehicle is targeting another. Of course, if I were certain I wouldn't have asked more questions.

I think Steve was pretty clear that vehicles have LOF to each other through non-smoking wrecks

Yes, that part is clear

and that vehicles do not have LOF through non-smoking wrecks to non-vehicular units.

LOF or LOS? That part is NOT so clear. I believe that the entire reason for this whole conundrum stems from the way that vehicles (tanks and SP guns, specifically) target other vehicles. Since they aim for center of mass, they seem to be unable to compensate for only being able to see a small portion of an enemy vehicle (a live tank poking out partially from behind a dead one, for example). The TacAI would simply shoot for "center of mass" over and over, always hitting the dead vehicle instead of the intended target.

Infantry seemingly don't pose this problem, so you can treat a dead vehicle as a physical object which blocks both LOS and LOF between a vehicle and any non-vehicle unit, with neither one being able to see through the tank. Even then, it would seem that a round of sufficient energy could go through the dead vehicle and hit the infantry behind in at least two circumstances: 1) The unit doing the shooting can see guys who aren't totally concealed behind the dead vehicle, and their shot just happens to hit the dead vehicle, and 2) A unit is shooting at something completely different, but a stray shot hits the dead vehicle and penetrates clear through.

Again, this is totally supposition on my part because I'm really not sure how it works. I'm just guessing based on the available info.

[Battlefront.com]

AT Guns are treated as if they are Vehicles for this purpose, so the same rules apply.

For infantry LOF is blocked, but the TacAI will (if it wants to) try to shoot at the guys behind the knocked out tank. Why? Let's say the knocked out vehicle is a truck and the firing unit is a Tiger. The Tiger could rip through that truck and get the crunchies on the other side. MG rounds can also sometimes get under a vehicle under optimal conditions.

In short, hiding infantry behind a knocked out vehicle helps, but if the enemy has something big and really wants to get at you he probably can. Dead vehicles aren't magical places of safety.

LOF/LOS is always based on height, so height matters here just like it does anywhere else. So if you couldn't get LOF/LOS to the spot in question without the dead vehicle inbetween you couldn't get LOF/LOS to that spot with it being there. Remember, this isn't some sort of free for all situation... it's extremely limited.

Of course shots that are on the way through a dead vehicle to vehicle target can cause unintended damage to an infantry unit inbetween.

Guys... don't over think this. It's a very straight forward situation that has a lot of variables to it, most of which mean this sort of situation doesn't come up very often. Plus, it's been in practice for 3 years or so and that was plenty of time for someone to have found a "gamey cheat" either in theory or in reality. None exist as far as I know. The "gamey cheat" was what was around before and even that was missed for a long time because it really didn't come up until I made that demo scenario.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

EDIT: ninja-ed by Steve

AT Guns are treated as if they are Vehicles for this purpose, so the same rules apply.

For infantry LOF is blocked, but the TacAI will (if it wants to) try to shoot at the guys behind the knocked out tank.

This clarifies a lot. Thanks.

[Battlefront.com]

I think Steve was pretty clear that vehicles have LOF to each other through non-smoking wrecks, and that vehicles do not have LOF through non-smoking wrecks to non-vehicular units.

To be very clear... smoking vehicles now block LOS as well as LOF. In CM:SF they blocked LOF only.

The whole point of the tweaks made to this system was to keep things fair and equal for both sides. If you find yourself wondering if one side can get an advantage that the other side does not have, then you're asking a question that has already been answered. The behavior is even. Nobody gets an advantage. That's the entire point of the changes we made post CM:SF v1.01.

Steve

[ClarkWGriswold]

For infantry LOF is blocked, but the TacAI will (if it wants to) try to shoot at the guys behind the knocked out tank. Why? Let's say the knocked out vehicle is a truck and the firing unit is a Tiger. The Tiger could rip through that truck and get the crunchies on the other side. MG rounds can also sometimes get under a vehicle under optimal conditions.

This is the part that's really getting me. You're basically saying that hiding behind a truck (or tank) offers no concealment at all, correct? It may offer cover, but no concealment. Is that correct?

I'm not concerned with gamey-ness. I just want to know under what circumstances vehicles block LOS and/or LOF. Since it doesn't really work like reality, I want to make sure I understand so that I can effectively use my units. This is what I've gathered so far:

1) Friendly vehicles never block LOS/LOF for other friendly vehicles.

2) Operable enemy vehicles block LOF, but not LOS, from friendly vehicles.

3) Non-smoking KO'd vehicles do not block LOS/LOF for friendly or enemy vehicles.

4) Non-smoking KO'd vehicles block LOF, but not LOS, from any unit as long as the targeted unit is not a vehicle (ie: tank shooting at infantry or infantry shooting at infantry)

5) Smoking vehicles block LOS and LOF.

6) "Vehicles" means tanks, SP guns, and AT/Anti-personnel guns.

Does that about sum it up?

[Erwin.Rommel]

Yeah, damned typos! Here's how it used to work, early in CM:SF. I'll specify that first THEN specify what changed...

Early in CM:SF friendly units did not block LOS or LOF. Enemy units, dead or alive, did. The inability to block friendly fire has to do with the near impossible task of having TacAI, LOS/LOF checks, and user interface all work in a way to not completely piss off the player. It's a MASSIVE amount of work to even get it to be half of what users expect. So it's far better to just acknowledge our limitations and work around the problem instead of fudge things up by trying to half ass it.

A particular scenario in the Demo, Smashing Steel (which I authored), had a tendency for AI controlled Red tanks to seek cover behind their dead brethren. The Blue tanks would pump round after round into the covering hulk while the tank behind it had the freedom to engage the Blue tanks without restrictions. Often times the Blue SABOT rounds would go through and take out the hiding tank, but not always. And it just looked wrong no matter what.

After some consideration we decided to allow LOF through dead vehicles for BOTH sides when the targets are other vehicles. This eliminated the one sided protection of a dead vehicle. Now both vehicles shoot at each other as if the dead vehicle isn't there.

This has been true for at least 3 years, so it's a very well tested concept that has produced no complaints (unlike the original behavior).

CM:BN puts a slightly new twist on this. Smoking dead vehicles now block LOS in both directions. This means you can hide behind a burning vehicle, but you can't engage through it from either side. That's because if you can't establish LOS then you can't establish LOF.

Clear now?

Steve

However,a new problem appears,when an syrian RPG team that hide behind a destroyed syrian tank engage my Abrams,his rounds can hit my tank,my rounds just repeatly hit the destroyed enemy tank.In some urban battles the RPG team even hide in a large building behind the destroyed tank,this prevents any harm to the RPG team from my tank round.the only choice is pull back my tank.this is always make me very annoyed.fortunately this is just a very rare occation.Sorry for my poor English.

[Battlefront.com]

This is the part that's really getting me. You're basically saying that hiding behind a truck (or tank) offers no concealment at all, correct? It may offer cover, but no concealment. Is that correct?

Correct. Concealment is a tough thing to calculate since we would have to take into consideration the relative sizes of the infantry and the vehicle. Trying to hide 7 men behind a Jeep seems a little hard to believe Plus, there is a massive calculation hit that would happen if we had LOS/Spotting have to deal with variable blockages like this. So best to just leave it out.

1) Friendly vehicles never block LOS/LOF for other friendly vehicles.

2) Operable enemy vehicles block LOF, but not LOS, from friendly vehicles.

3) Non-smoking KO'd vehicles do not block LOS/LOF for friendly or enemy vehicles.

4) Non-smoking KO'd vehicles block LOF, but not LOS, from any unit as long as the targeted unit is not a vehicle (ie: tank shooting at infantry or infantry shooting at infantry)

5) Smoking vehicles block LOS and LOF.

6) "Vehicles" means tanks, SP guns, and AT/Anti-personnel guns.

You got it!

From a technical standpoint #5 is really "Smoking vehicles block LOS" only. But if LOS is blocked then LOF is effectively blocked, so the LOF blockage goes along for the ride (so to speak).

The good news is that when playing the game it feels very intuitive because it works mostly as you would expect. The firing through friendly units, for example, is standard game wide. Being able to shoot at something that can shoot at you, regardless of a dead vehicle, is also an expected behavior. Which is why the very old CM:SF method wasn't good and had to be changed.

However,a new problem appears,when an syrian RPG team that hide behind a destroyed syrian tank engage my Abrams,his rounds can hit my tank,my rounds just repeatly hit the destroyed enemy tank.In some urban battles the RPG team even hide in a large building behind the destroyed tank,this prevents any harm to the RPG team from my tank round.the only choice is pull back my tank.this is always make me very annoyed.fortunately this is just a very rare occation.Sorry for my poor English.

Actually, I do not know if the game still behaves this way. I think I will go find out

Steve