Fetchez la Vache Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 No idea about training, but that position frankly looks more comfortable for sprinting - and you'd probably be utilising the weight of the rifle to help you move forward (like swinging your arm). I'm think they would revert back to a "ready" position if there was the possibility of a close chance encounter with the enemy... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 You are quite correct, in general terms. However, I have on my bookshelves a copy of Kesslering's memoirs and in the background of a photo one can see a member of the 71st Infantry Division scratching his nuts with his right hand. Now, the 71st was transferred to France in September 1944, so, clearly, any scenario or QB involving units from that formation will need their own animations. Otherwise the game will be broken. I know the book and particularly the photo you're talking about. It's been the cause of quite a bit of fervent discussion in military history circles. The nut-scratching issue has been resolved in military history circles, because of the level of research undertaken during & since the publication of the book. Expert analysis of the photographs has shown that the key photo in question was actually printed in reverse. It's actually quite a common problem, and usually pretty easy to spot, but for a number of reasons in this case it wasn't. The key give-away, actually, was that in the un-cropped version of the print Alphonse Juin can be just barely seen to the left of the frame, but he also appears to be fervently scratching his nuts with his right arm. Case closed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I know the book and particularly the photo you're talking about. It's been the cause of quite a bit of fervent discussion in military history circles. The nut-scratching issue has been resolved in military history circles, because of the level of research undertaken during & since the publication of the book. Expert analysis of the photographs has shown that the key photo in question was actually printed in reverse. It's actually quite a common problem, and usually pretty easy to spot, but for a number of reasons in this case it wasn't. The key give-away, actually, was that in the un-cropped version of the print Alphonse Juin can be just barely seen to the left of the frame, but he also appears to be fervently scratching his nuts with his right arm. Case closed. Thanks for that. Its not really my period so I wasn't aware of all the work that had gone on. On another note, just looking at the book again, opposite page 129 (in the 1988 edition, ISBN 0-947898-94-8). There is a photo of Von Mackensen, Kesselring and Malzer taken in 1947 after they were condemmed to death. It looks like they have been out for a walk in the country. They all look very cheerful and Kesslering is holding a bunch, of what appears to be, wild flowers in his LEFT hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Thanks for that. Its not really my period so I wasn't aware of all the work that had gone on. On another note, just looking at the book again, opposite page 129 (in the 1988 edition, ISBN 0-947898-94-8). There is a photo of Von Mackensen, Kesselring and Malzer taken in 1947 after they were condemmed to death. It looks like they have been out for a walk in the country. They all look very cheerful and Kesslering is holding a bunch, of what appears to be, wild flowers in his LEFT hand. They all look very cheerful because in the time honoured SOP for General Officers who are condemned to death, Kesslering, being the senior officer is having his nuts scratched by both von Mackensen and Malzer, using the right hand of course, the left being suitable only in instances where the junior officer is juxtapositioned with said senior officer and then only if he is NOT holding a posie of flowers "And to think, at one point there was an actual girl on the forums......." What girl wouldn't want to partake in gems like these ?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Most Germans carried their rifles in their right hand, gripped near the rear sight... Just to add fuel to the fire, last night I was watching a program about Guadalcanal which had a lot of archival footage I had never seen before. And in one shot, at least one man exiting a landing craft is holding his rifle in the manner you describe. One minor point though, either the troops in question were not Marines or were not on Guadalcanal (I think the latter most likely as this looked like a training exercise) since the rifles they were carrying were M1s. And BTW, I have also seen photos of German troops with their rifles in both hands in a semi-port arms configuration, so I think as someone mentioned it depended on how imminently contact with the enemy was expected. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Just to add fuel to the fire, last night I was watching a program about Guadalcanal which had a lot of archival footage I had never seen before. And in one shot, at least one man exiting a landing craft is holding his rifle in the manner you describe. The bastard must be a German spy, or at least a sympathiser ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Does anyone know the idea why it's been done like that? And was this instructed in training? .... In boot camp they were taught: Viewer warning: mature content. They need the other hand free, just for fun. Also provides nut scratching capabilities. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 An excellent film, showing the correct technique for nut scratching as adopted by most western forces post ww2, although I hasten to add that depicted here is more of an adjust than a regulation scratch but more than likely that is because it is only a training exercise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Suddenly neurons click into place! Wasn't the rifle holding style we're discussing known as "at trail"? At least I have some Napoleonic figures described as such... In which case it was taught in training I think? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Suddenly neurons click into place! Wasn't the rifle holding style we're discussing known as "at trail"? At least I have some Napoleonic figures described as such... In which case it was taught in training I think? I don't think that the holding of the rifle in that manner would have really been a taught thing, more just most people found out that it is a convenient and comfortable way to carry the weapon. Other similar weapons had differing points of balance and so they were carried differently 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Hey, eneugh philosophize about nut scratching ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Hey, eneugh philosophize about nut scratching ! Wiggum, I don't think we have had a philosophy discussion. All we have had is a conversation on the military etiquette of nut-scratching with the intention of ensuring the animations in the game are as accurate as can be achieved. Admittedly its participants have in the main been nut-scratching grogs and military history pendants, but that doesn't I would suggest dtract from its relevence to the game. If the discussion had drifted into the philosophy of manual testicular rasping then one of the clever buggers, probably JonS, would have, by now, brought Descates famous axiom "Redo, ergo sum!" (I scratch, thereore I am"). Others would have drawn in Voltaire, who had a lot to say on the subject; e.g. "Common Scratching is not so common" and "I do not agree with what you scratch but I will defend to the death your right to scratch it". Posters who are a bent towards the Eastern philophies could have brought in Confucius, "The young man who has not scratched is a savage, and the old man who will not scratch is a fool." As an ex-British Squaddie, I would probably have weighed with "For man, the unscratched life is not worth living" - Socrates (who was a lovely little thinker but a bugger when he was pissed). So, my contention, I think, holds true. We had not had a posts on the philosphy of nut-scratching. That said, I do agree with your underlying point that threads do too often drift and we should try and keep the posts on this board strictly game related. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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