Line of Sight as Commander

[UsF]

Since I am not that familiar with the Combat Mission series that much, I wanted to ask if there is something similar to HistWar's true line of sight as commander.

The idea here is that you are a commander on the battlefield and you only have true line of sight of what you actually see. Everything else happens behind curtains and you only get estimate reports about enemy encounters.

The problem here is that you would need to balance information versus being protected, since seeing everything might not be too useful if you are seeing the other end of a superior enemy shooting at you.

I do not know if that would suit the game or even be interesting, with the new version moving to more individualism. It would probably be a shame to waste that in general and hiding everything in the fog of war.

[MeatEtr]

There use to be a set of rules for the hardcore FOW players, was named ____ Rules, I forget. It relied on the player to abide by them though. It was mostly restricted camera movement, like no elevating the camera above ground at all and you can only lock to a unit to look around.

Always wondered why BF didn't implement some kind of hardcore FOW skill level. Or at least give us more options to fine tune the game to a players preference. Great example of this is the robust options of the IL2 series. I know it's a very different genre, but could still be done for CM, at least to some extent.

[Michael Emrys]

There use to be a set of rules for the hardcore FOW players, was named ____ Rules, I forget.

ISTR that was called Iron Man Rules, or something like that.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

Franko's Iron Man rules was the rule set for CMx1 that tried to restrict the player's control and view to more realistic level. But these rules still let players select and view the game from the perspective of each individual unit, not just to what one commander unit could see. You used the keyboard to cycle through your units one at a time, and used only view level 1 (or sometimes 2 for vehicles) from the location of the unit you were currently plotting orders for.

Restricting view to only what one commanding unit can see isn't really possible in a game like CM because the game is inherently built with the assumption that the player is taking on the role of each individual unit commander within his forces in turn, as well as the overall commander. The player has to select and look at the perspective or each individual unit in order to plot movement waypoints and the like. IRL, a Company commander doesn't decide the exact location of an MG team. He gives general orders like, "take your team up to that crestline, and find a position where you have good overwatch on the approach to that bridge." The Platoon and section commanders figure out the rest.

The CM AI is nowhere near "smart" enough that the player could play the role of Company or Battalion commander only. In order to do this, the AI would have to be smart enough that the player could issue a platoon a general order like, "clear that stand of trees of all enemy, and then prepare a position there to hold against a possible counterattack," and have the AI figure out all the details of how the order are should be carried out. You're going to be waiting a long time if you're looking for a computer game that can actually do something like this.

Even if the AI requirements were achievable, a realistic Company or Battalion level command game probably wouldn't be very interesting to most gamers. You'd create a plan of battle at the start, which would probably be the most interesting part. After this, your information and ability to affect what was going on would be much more limited than what computer gamers are accustomed to. You'd get fragmentary and often contradictory reports over radio. You would issue fragmentary orders over radio to platoon commanders, which would only sometimes get through and be followed. Maybe occasionally you'd be able to put yourself at a critical point in the battle and take a direct hand in things. But more often than not, you'd be hanging on the radio, and hoping that your platoon and section commanders have the discipline to follow through with your orders, and sometimes the intelligence and initiative to know when to improvise.

Cheers,

YD

Cheers,

YD

[JonS]

Franko's Iron Man Rules or Franko's True Combat Rules

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/showthread.php?6823-Franko-s-TC-rules

http://www.battlefront.com/community/archive/index.php/t-39417.html

http://www.forum.cmhq.pl/index.php?link=1&id=432

http://www.closecombat.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7057

[hoolaman]

Frankos rules in CM1 were a bit impratical because the terrain was not WYSIWYG. There would be a tree sprite blocking your view even though that unit had LOS.

[MeatEtr]

Ahh yes thats what it was, brings back memories. Thanks for the links too.

[Broadsword56]

Besides, the new CMBN is going to look so awesome that you'll want to see everything as it unfolds!

[UsF]

Well I do not mean to limit the camera to a realistic view, that might be annoying I think.

What I meant was a fog of war and only one unit that has true line of sight, your commander, you. Everything else would receive updated Icons of combat, units etc. the same thing that would be visible if you have audio contact or an unidentified vehicle, I would assume.

You would receive constant updates on your units position, if the radio operator of their squad is alive, vehicles would be the same. You would only work with the icons and to get a better view of the action, you would have to bring yourself closer to it. This might work best for small scale operations where you command a few units and are a part of them. Large scale operations might become annoying very fast if you lack the proper information to deal with everything.

Yes the AI would need to be self sufficient in most regards, I think it is only feasible for infantry engagements with light vehicles. Heavy vehicles and tank destroyers tend to need the players attention to always face the right way the right time. We saw that in the preview AARs.

And finally yes I am sure it is going to look awesome, but I have the weird habbit of using games in ways that they were not designed for.

[MarkEzra]

... but I have the weird habbit of using games in ways that they were not designed for.

Then this is the game for you

[noob]

I think having an option to restrict LOS to level 1 would be excellent, it would then make owning high ground and multi storey buildings more advantageous than usual.

I tried it in CMx1 and it was good, a bit frustrating at first but once you got used to it it was great fun, especially with scouts or AC's................following an AC down a road at eye level waiting for the inevitable was awesome

A camera level lock option would be nice as it's sometimes too tempting to zoom up when things get complex

[Danny Chung]

I was wondering if there could be a way of forcing the player to use LOS at ground level or at most slightly up by the simple trick that if he continues to use the aerial view, his final score will be subject to a discount.

The more use of aerial view, the more the discount so that even he kills or injures everyone on the opposing force, his final score will only be slightly ahead of the opponent's score.

By all means have aerial view free of charge at set up stage but as soon as turn 1 starts, that's it, no aerial view unless you are prepared to pay for it.

I think to fully appreciate how difficult combat is in the real world, you need LOS restricted.

Dan

[Michael Emrys]

I was wondering if there could be a way of forcing the player to use LOS at ground level or at most slightly up by the simple trick that if he continues to use the aerial view, his final score will be subject to a discount.

I have a hunch that most players would be dissatisfied if forced to play that way though. Dissatisfied players won't buy the following releases.

Michael

[Danny Chung]

I dunno about losing potential customers.

How about a locking feature for LOS and make it an option to click on or leave off at before the game starts?

And you get a premium on top of your score for clicking the option on.

Dan

[AslakH]

I dunno about losing potential customers.

How about a locking feature for LOS and make it an option to click on or leave off at before the game starts?

And you get a premium on top of your score for clicking the option on.

Dan

Is it all about the scores now? K/D stat-whores might like it.

If it's supposed to be hardcore, why give the premium?

Maybe 1 out of 50 customers will find it fun.

By all means, play as you like.

[noob]

Would having the option to lock the LOS at Level 1 be that difficult ?

[UsF]

Would having the option to lock the LOS at Level 1 be that difficult ?

To be honest, I do not like that idea. I was more thinking along the lines of just limiting the fog to one single unit, the player character. Limiting the camera to the lowest possible height while not allowing it to move away too far from friendly units, seems like another idea, though I do not know if this would be good.

[noob]

To be honest, I do not like that idea. I was more thinking along the lines of just limiting the fog to one single unit, the player character. Limiting the camera to the lowest possible height while not allowing it to move away too far from friendly units, seems like another idea, though I do not know if this would be good.

Most people don't or won't like the idea, it's a real shift from the usual CM experience, but having the option to lock it (i mean lock the level view "and" lock the camera to the unit) won't change anything for people that don't like the idea and everything for people that do, and as the temptation to elevate the view when playing can test a saint it would remove any ethical conflicts for the masochists that want to use it

[Erwin]

No harm in the option. But,I think CM1 showed that it would be unplayable for anything more than a squad, maybe a platoon if close together.

The irony is that if you really want the experience go with a relatively simple 2D topdown map type game with icons for units. The positions are what they were last they reported. (Minute Man's ACW games were a bit like that.)

Otherwise, you may as well get a first person shooter game (minus the wrist twitch excitement of course). I wonder why they don't make those...

Oh yeah... no one would buy it.

[UsF]

Otherwise, you may as well get a first person shooter game (minus the wrist twitch excitement of course). I wonder why they don't make those...

Oh yeah... no one would buy it.

Operation Flashpoint/Armed Assault as platoon commander?

[noob]

No harm in the option. But,I think CM1 showed that it would be unplayable for anything more than a squad, maybe a platoon if close together.

Not true, i used to play CM1 with "camera lock on unit" and an mutually agreed level 1 restriction and it was fun, if you wanted to see down a road you had to move down it, if you wanted to see across a field you had to get in a 2 storey building, the only hassle was plotting move paths but that just made you come up with simpler attack paths and thus reduced the level of micro management you get when able to fly around the map checking everything from every angle.

The irony is that if you really want the experience go with a relatively simple 2D topdown map type game with icons for units. The positions are what they were last they reported. (Minute Man's ACW games were a bit like that.)

Yes, if i want the experience of a relatively simple 2D topdown map type game with icons for units, but i don't, i want the option to have the ability to have the camera locked to the unit and fixed at level 1 so you only see what the unit sees from the units perspective....simple really.

Otherwise, you may as well get a first person shooter game (minus the wrist twitch excitement of course). I wonder why they don't make those...

Oh yeah... no one would buy it.

I have ARMA but unlike CMSF you cannot control "all" the other units in play, and also in ARMA there are options to force first person perspective and no command view (which is similar to the god like over view you get in CM) so like ARMA it would be good if Battlefront put in a couple of simple options that would enforce a completely new perspective on the game if desired.

[Erwin]

I still don't understand how you can control more than a few units. If you jump around to the various units, doesn't that rather spoil the point of restricting your view?

And after all, you can restrict yourself to level 1 right now. Just takes discipline.

[MeatEtr]

I still don't understand how you can control more than a few units. If you jump around to the various units, doesn't that rather spoil the point of restricting your view?

It doesn't spoil anything, you can cycle through your units without ever scrolling the camera around. IIRC it's the - and + keys, same as it was in CMx1. So you never leave the ground level view. Of course this would be tougher to do in RT mode. But still possible with smallish size battles and pausing a lot.

And after all, you can restrict yourself to level 1 right now. Just takes discipline.

The primary reason to make it an actual mode, let's call it FPS mode, is for MP. Unless you got a buddy you know you can trust not to cheat, then your fine. But if the actual mode is agreed to and chosen then you know for sure both players are restricted.

[YankeeDog]

The problem with a "restrict to unit's viewpoint at level 1" mode is that simply restricting camera position to a single point location for each unit doesn't work all the time -- sometimes, you have to move the camera at least a little bit, because a tree branch, flavor object, low wall, or whatever, prevents you from seeing the exact spot where you want to plot a waypoint.

The old Franko Iron Man rules has a provision to deal this -- basically, once you had moved your camera to the viewpoint of a certain unit, you were allowed to nudge the camera a few meters on way or the other, as needed.

In order to create an "official" Iron Man viewpoint restriction, all of this would have to be coded. Not impossible, to be sure. But not trivial, either.

[noob]

In order to create an "official" Iron Man viewpoint restriction, all of this would have to be coded. Not impossible, to be sure. But not trivial, either.

"Not impossible".......i like that

I think the concept is worth pursuing, if implemented well it would create a game within a game.