Request: British Army Officer for briefing help

[hcrof]

I am currently designing a new scenario based on a hypothetical Fulda Gap type scenario and have a battle nearly ready for playtesting between British forces and troops from a Soviet category B division.

I would very much appreciate it if I could get help in writing a realistic briefing as well as some minor TO&E details for the British force (an infantry heavy battlegroup).

It looks like it could be a very fun scenario, especially as the British player is going to have a very hard time holding back a both quantitatively and qualitatively superior force in and around the villages of Neuenstein and Saasen (copied from Google Earth, look it up!).

Any volunteers?

[Boche]

I would recomend making them like the NATO briefings, they are much more detailed this time around

plus the briefing doesnt need to be realistic! just good enought to tell us the things you want us to know and the things we need to know!

definatelly looking forward to playing that scenario!

[gibsonm]

You also need to ensure they aren't too realistic. Orders are filled with so many abbreviations and acronyms that unless you are serving, its probably hard to understand.

[Erwin]

Glad you said that.

Yes, some of the early briefings in CMSF were very hard to understand as they were filled with masses of info of no real value to playing the game (kinda like the manuals).

[snake_eye]

Hcrof,

Hope you are not having a framerate too low with the carpet rolling add of numerous soviets tanks. I have found that the game has a tendancy to slow down with all the addons charged (Marines, UK & NATO) even with the 1.31 patch. That was particularly the case with NATO "Beer & Bretzel". As a mater of fact I am lowering the UK armored units number in the scenario following the " a helluva road opening" I am testing. 500 Tommies and Marines plus the vehicles made the game slowing too much to my feeling, for a RT play. I may have reach the limit for my graphic card, besides having a 4 Mo Ram and a 2 Mhz Dual core processor.

Did you notice that ?

If you want it I can give anyway, a try to the scenario. For the briefing I am not too much accustomed with the british uses, even if they are within the NATO rules.

Cheers

[snake_eye]

That link might be of some interest to some of you :

http://www.1-33rdar.org/fulagap.htm

Since the use of tactical atomic rockets were planned to close the gap to the russian with the David Crockett rocket launchers deployed for that purpose, here is the link :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)

A chance BF did not feature it Hcroft, there would not be any more good scenario left to play once it is used. whow!

Cheers

[Boche]

The DC was after all...

THE ULTIMATE WEAPON!:

watch till the end , fun stuff

[Erwin]

Never played Solid Gear Metal whatever. Was it any good?

[snake_eye]

Surprising video ending !

[hcrof]

Thanks guys, I am making steady progress but my speed at making battles is pretty slow these days. I am also creating a number of custom mods for the battle in order to get the visuals right - green UK vehicles and extensive model swaps to make the Syrians Soviet are just the beginning!

snake eye, the battle is pretty system intensive - certainly the graphics need to be turned down but I haven't had any major problems yet. The map is 2000m x 2500m and the forces involved are about battalion strength on both sides. (The Soviets are by far the stronger force however, and have a massive advantage in artillery).

In terms of the briefings I have the red one nearly done and I hope to get some help from our ex Soviet friends with that. The Blue one I haven't started yet. Im afraid they do contain masses of information that you don't strictly need (context, suggested coarse of action, Soviet battle drills etc.) however for those that want to get stright to the point I have included very short summaries!

At some point I will put out the call for playtesters but with my real life schedule as it is, it may be a few weeks before I do. The battle will be strictly multiplayer only I'm afraid, I can't do AI plans and personally I never play singleplayer anyway.

[flamingknives]

If you are including suggested courses of action, then might I suggest that these might actually work as the basis for a plan. It's one of the most frustrating things about a briefing for it to be deliberately untrue.

[hcrof]

Don't worry, I get annoyed by them too

To be honest my suggested coarse of action boils down to 'be aggressive and don't be afraid to take a few casualties' for both sides. The outcome of this battle will rest entirely on who seizes the initiative and keeps the enemy on the back foot.

The mission is not fancy, just a straightforward meeting engagement between two forces that basically know each others composition. It might not go to plan but that will be entirely down to the skill/luck of the commanders involved, not any (major) surprises!

[gibsonm]

The mission is not fancy, just a straightforward meeting engagement between two forces that basically know each others composition.

So how does that work?

A ME implies that you don't know what you are about to encounter (otherwise you wouldn't stumble into them ).

Surely if your S2 knows their composition he has a reasonable idea as to the routes, doctinal order of march, order of battle, etc.?

Perhaps its predicated on a suspected enemy advance but they have accepted some risk and moved faster than expected?

[hcrof]

Good question.

The Soviet force (the advance guard of a division) has broken through and the wider battle has become very fluid. The British battlegroup are moving into blocking positions in an area of constricted terrain that the Soviets really have to move through.

The Soviets are aware of this force through battlefield radar and (brief) visual confirmation. They have no choice but to engage frontally however and the rapid buildup of forces deploying off the march will mean that they will win eventually even if they are delayed.

The British know that they have the advance guard of a Soviet division coming at them - they don't have a detailed idea as to their opponents composition but they can make some educated guesses! Their job is to delay the Soviets but there is little chance of them surviving the eventual outcome.

Maybe you wouldn't call that a meeting engagement? More of a Hasty attack/Hasty defence?

Either way does it sound plausible?

[gibsonm]

Well I'm not sure.

If by "Infantry heavy Battlegroup" (from your first post) I'm hoping they are mech?

If leg/light then I suspect they wouldn't get to the blocking position in time to deploy properly and accordingly not have the extra combat power that light infantry derive from fortifications to ensure they are more than "speed bumps".

Part of that of course also derives from the amount of "delay" required and again if truck mounted they wouldn't have the protection required to achieve a clean break under fire and displace to second and subsequent delay lines.

So if its a 3 x Coy of Inf, 1 x Sqn of Tks BG (the usual definition of "Inf hvy") then I don't think its going to last too long if the Inf aren't mech.

Now if its a BG that has occupied its assigned battle positions before this Soviet "forward detachment" arrives then sure they could impose delay (but again depending on the terrain involved and the degree of delay if may or may not be workable).

So if the "delay" is to repulse the initial quick attack and force the Soviets to bring up their second echelon and use up time to conduct a deliberate atk, then that works.

If the delay is to repluse multiple deliberate atks, I think that's unlikely and I also doubt that the BG would fight to "the last man" and accept being destroyed (esp. having done some time with Brit units in Germany in the late 80's).

Yes they knew where their battle positions were and practiced occupying them, but they also knew how much delay they had to inflict and had credible withdrawl routes planned.

[snake_eye]

Hcroft, I agree with gibsonm analysis.

More, If the blocking position is one prepared, well sited and occupied by the UK troops, they can delay the Soviet a certain amount of time. However in the face of a strong mechanized thrust they can only succeed if they have the capability to shoot and to stop them for a short time, during which they withdraw to a second position where another group is already hunkered down and whose fire will cover their retreat. The group can then get through them and reach a third position from where they will cover the second position group while it is retreating after having fire and so on. Not after having fired too long however, since such a tactical retreat move has to be done while the enemy is blocked by the fire of others having not yet disengaged. If they all move together at once and if the enemy move, they are done for a very bad time.

besides, that move, I don't think that you will have time to get your ground AT(Javelin ?) if available in interlocking position to cover the probable penetration area. If they are in the rear however, in prepared sites, they will score when the enemy gets in range and as long as they get ammo. They don't have that much.

Also, since, you are doing a ME, you won't have the time to reach the best firing and covered field of fire. You are going to be in contact at once. Against stronger odds, your only chance is to draw on them more fire power that the one they have and retreat till you get on better defence position. Rather difficult to do against a strong Soviet armored unit. They are going to be on your heels. The A.I won't do it but a Human player surely will do that. If you can have a group on their flank, that might help halting them, for a time. Will you be able to move it ?

If you have artillery available and or planes you might be able to slow them down as long as they stay in the define area. Will you be able to define it with the FO and have the shots called before they move out of it ?. I don't think it will happen.

[hcrof]

Interesting points guys, it really helps to solidify the Blue mission in my mind. The job of the British battlegroup is to delay the soviet forces for at least 2 hours in order to force it to deploy. I think I will keep it ambiguous what the future actions will be but perhaps they are setting up an air strike (although the skies are still contested).

It is a mechanised force (tanks and APCs) with the opportunity for a reverse slope defence inside a village. If the British get a chance to dig in they will be very hard to shift, if the Soviets are too fast then they are very vulnerable. Basically the Soviets have to avoid an urban fight at all costs - fitting right with their doctrine

Given the set up any retreat could be very bloody but I think given the extreme nature of the situation, they would accept that. The Soviets have broken through and in my mind the finger is already hovering over the tac nuke button. Even then, it is not impossible to retreat (with a bit of luck) but the player will not have to attempt this!

[Boche]

what year is it set in?

[hcrof]

I am working on late '83 but it can be a little flexible given that I can quite easily swap forces in and out. The Soviet stuff I am using wasn't top of the line even then! The British stuff is though - the best equipment they can muster at the time.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Out of curiosity, this was implied earlier: Does the British Army (2008, not 1983) make Battlegroups around a Mech (instead of Armoured) Infantry battalion? So something like:

3x Mech Inf Coys

1x Tank Squadron

I'm wondering because I'm considering making a British campaign, but I'm kind of tired of Warriors and I think British Mech Inf has some cool stuff.

[gibsonm]

It is a mechanised force (tanks and APCs) with the opportunity for a reverse slope defence inside a village. If the British get a chance to dig in they will be very hard to shift, if the Soviets are too fast then they are very vulnerable. Basically the Soviets have to avoid an urban fight at all costs - fitting right with their doctrine

OK but three more questions / issues.

1. Fulda Gap was in the US sector, nowhere near BOAR's AO. They had pretty much the north German plain to worry about.

If you want to use Fulda Gap then you are looking at an ACR (US Armoured Cavarly Regiment) type engagement.

2. If this is Brits Vs Soviets in the 80's you are going to run into issues because that Brits in CM:SF UK no longer have a lot of kit that the BOAR would have used.

The British had "Swingfire" ATGM mounted on "Striker" a dedicated ATGM vehicle (part of the Scimitar, Scorpion, etc. CVRT family). While not as good a weapon as Javelin it gave then the ability to fire from under armour and it could be fired remotely.

Next BOAR would have loved to have had had Challenger (let alone Challenger 2) but if this is set in the early 1980's you are looking at Chieftan which is a much different beastie. If its the late 80's then you do get Challenger 1 but its fire control system, etc. was pretty poor compared to Challenger 2 (it came last on debut at the CAT - Canadian Army Trophy shoot).

3. Get out of the village!

If you rely on a village / reverse slope defense you give away one of the fundamentals of a delaying defence. You must engage the enemy at range, force him to deploy and start eating time.

Reverse slope defences mean you abandon that and rely on engaging the enemy at short range as they come over the crest that gives you the reverse slope.

A Tk Sqn can delay a Soviet Tank Bn at 2,500m, it cannot delay the same 32 or so tanks in assault formation at 500m they will be overwhelmed as the Soviets cross the remaining ground at speed.

Ideally you want a series of ridgelines, defiles, etc. so that you an give him a bloody nose, achieve a clean break, move to the next position and do it again.

If you focus on defending "a" village then I'm afraid for my money this becomes yet another urban centric, infantry kicking in doors, activity that seems to dominate the CM:SF published scenario world.

[gibsonm]

Out of curiosity, this was implied earlier: Does the British Army (2008, not 1983) make Battlegroups around a Mech (instead of Armoured) Infantry battalion? So something like:

3x Mech Inf Coys

1x Tank Squadron

I'm wondering because I'm considering making a British campaign, but I'm kind of tired of Warriors and I think British Mech Inf has some cool stuff.

Today the Brit Army makes BG around whatever is required for the job.

So if all the Warriors are somewhere else (they aren't almost universal like Bradley's for the Americans) then you may well find a Mech BG intead of an Armd inf BG.

But the Inf in a BG tend to come from "a" Regt (so it would be unlikely to to have Mech and Armd inf in the one BG).

Options like:

Square

2 x Tk Sqn

2 x Armd / Mech Inf

Tk Hvy

3 x Tk Sqn

1 x Armd / Mech Inf

Inf Hvy

1 x Tk Sqn

3 x Armd / Mech Inf

Mixed

2 x Tk Sqn

1 x Recce Sqn

1 x Armd / Mech Inf

Are all possible, depending on the task and assets available.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Great, thanks gibsonm!

[gibsonm]

hcrof,

Something else I just though of that's timeline related.

The equipment held by a first echelon Soviet division of the late 80's (BMP-1, AT-4, T-72, etc.) is in CM:SF terms "2nd eleven" due to the passage of time.

If you equip the "Soviets" with that I suspect you'll be forced to use 2nd line Syrian troops with the attendant morale issues.

As a reult the "Soviets" combat performance may well be adversely affected because they aren't the first line elements of say "3rd Guards Shock Army" but rather some Syrian conscript unit.

I'll have to check to see if you can generate high morale Syrian troops with "old" (in the CM:SF context) equipment.

[Edit / Update:] Looks like as long as you don't choose from "Republican Guard" you can purchase high morale units with older gear.

The other thing I should comment on but this time is related to your scenario concept.

Another reason to avoid the "village defence" is as you yourself identified, the Soviets would avoid such a battle as it would remove their momentum.

As you identified, given the choice they would bypass a built up area of resistance and press on cross country leaving the isolated pocket to a second or third echelon formation to "mop up".

So unless your village is the equivalent of Bastogne (namely a vital road hub - in which case I'm thinking you'd have one of the Soviets 6 or 7 airborne divisions coming your way with Hind and other support well before the ground forces), I don't think defending an urban area in of itself provokes a Soviet ground attack.

[hcrof]

gibsonm: yes, the Fulda gap was the American sector. I started the map but then realised that that the American force of the 80's was impossible to replicate. The big sticking point was a TOW M113. There is no satisfactory equivalent in CMSF. Because of this I am forced to use the British that are in the Fulda Gap area due to some weird turn of events. If you have some ideas on how to simulate a 1983 US force then please let me know!

In terms of Swingfire, I am aware of it but given the close terrain they would not be that useful. Also I am pretty sure they were not a Battalion asset. Instead the British have plenty of Milan launchers. I am still not entirely sure as to exactly how many Milans were in a British battlegroup in 1983 (lots of contradictory info )but there loads available to the player!

Challenger 1 wasn't available in 1983 but Chieftain Mk 12 was, so that is what is being simulated in the battle.

For the Soviet stuff, the forces are 2nd eleven for the Soviets (category but are still quite respectable. (No T-80s but T-72 is still a scary tank and a BMP is still much better than a FV432). I don't want to give away exact forces but I have made sure that experience etc. is appropriate. Junior leadership is pretty poor for example but the troops are competent and well motivated.

As for defending the village, I have just given the terrain and the forces. The village is definitely important but I can't see a Soviet player kicking down doors. It is too time consuming and will use too many resources. Instead I would expect to see the Soviets isolate a static British force in the village and bypass them. There is a little room to manoeuvre and the village is just what was given to me by Google Earth. It is by no means an "ideal" defensive position. On the other hand, I would be surprised to see the British relying on the village alone. Human players tend to be pretty inventive.

Map of the battlefield. There is a ridge about 1/3 of the way up and another behind the village. The Soviets are moving North. Note how the forest on both sides restricts movement.