A teeny weeny little bug thread for NATO

[stoex]

With regards to ammo sharing.

I had a dutch recon team jump in a APC to go fetch a Panzerfaust missile, there was another recon team on the roof of the building the APC was hiding behind. Then the second the recon team dismounted the faust missile instantly jumped from the dismounting team to the team on the roof. I thought ammo sharing wasn't supposed to work like this?

Precisely what I was saying. This works for any building height, by the way. Imagine a tall building you are using for overwatch - any and all units inside that building can be resupplied instantly as needed by a small team behind the building jumping into a vehicle parked next to them, grabbing the needed ammo, and dismounting again. Presto!!! No-one in the building has to move or undeploy their heavy weapons, and it's instantaneous regardless of which floor anyone is on. Not realistic for sure.

[Jonny(FGM)]

I think you misunderstand the problem, the problem wasn't that the ammo sharing was done from the ground to a building roof, it was that the rocket moved from one squad to the other

[stoex]

Yeah, sorry, I did misunderstand that. I have some pertinent info for you nonetheless: In the case of my GILL missile teams, they never passed on their last missile to another team. Why your one squad gave their only Panzerfaust missile away, I can only guess. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the Panzerfaust is a weapon not bound to a certain specialist team using it? Dunno, in any case it seems to me that the ammo sharing thing, while a great addition to the game, could use a little more tweaking - though in the case of your issue making it more controllable without excessive micromanagement would seem difficult. Maybe no unit should ever give up the last round of ammo they have for a certain weapon? Then again sometimes you might want that to happen, too...difficult to find a balance there, I guess.

[Praetori]

Precisely what I was saying. This works for any building height, by the way. Imagine a tall building you are using for overwatch - any and all units inside that building can be resupplied instantly as needed by a small team behind the building jumping into a vehicle parked next to them, grabbing the needed ammo, and dismounting again. Presto!!! No-one in the building has to move or undeploy their heavy weapons, and it's instantaneous regardless of which floor anyone is on. Not realistic for sure.

With the scope of CMSF I really don't see the problem. If there were skyscrapers then it would be a different matter. But a soldier running a few floors to get or deliver some munitions doesn't have to be modeled IMO.

[Boche]

Interesting moment for me in ammo sharing:

i had 2 WMIK crews dismouted with their GPMGs with their ussual 700 ammo.

i made the fire support HQ get about 3k ammunition from the WMIKs and sit next to the 2 crews that where providing suppresive fire on a building, the 2 crews went up to 3k ammo.

I found this quite interesting and made me feel so imersed in the moment jaja

great adition

[Gpig]

Ok. that is flat out AWESOME!

[akd]

Precisely what I was saying. This works for any building height, by the way. Imagine a tall building you are using for overwatch - any and all units inside that building can be resupplied instantly as needed by a small team behind the building jumping into a vehicle parked next to them, grabbing the needed ammo, and dismounting again. Presto!!! No-one in the building has to move or undeploy their heavy weapons, and it's instantaneous regardless of which floor anyone is on. Not realistic for sure.

Since it is equally unrealistic to pack-up a crew-served weapon just to go downstairs for more ammo (probably one member of the team would be sent), I think we can consider this one a realism wash.

[Boche]

I mean now we can just send a HQ unit or half a section to get the ammo quickly...much more convinient

[Waaarg]

M3 of the German Campaign Ali Bab says TOD is night in the Briefing. "The Moon is Full".

With a Minor Defeat in M2, the setup phase was night. I quit out and loaded up M2 again and got a total victory, but now the sun is out. Not sure if this is intended upon a victory in M2 to go to M3.

[stoex]

With the scope of CMSF I really don't see the problem. If there were skyscrapers then it would be a different matter. But a soldier running a few floors to get or deliver some munitions doesn't have to be modeled IMO.

To be sure, Praetori, the soldier running up and down the stairs doesn't have to be modeled. It would be nice, however, if it weren't instantaneous the moment said soldier dismounted from his vehicle several floors down, outside the building, don't you think? Shouldn't there be a delay of some kind? It doesn't have to be a skyscraper for a guy to take a minute or two to make the trip...either a delay or a way to make the speed of sharing dependent on the distance (meaning number of floors in this case) between the two units would be good, I think.

[c3k]

C'mon, how about he tossed it up there? With the rocket tube sticking out the back, it'd be easy to throw, kind of like how a stick grenade goes further than a standard grenade. (Hey, are the different grenade throwing ranges modeled?)

Or, it's abstracted, just like Casevac; it's in the game, you just don't see every single event.

Ken

[stoex]

Not trying to be fussy here, just to get my main point across: Of course ammo sharing is abstracted to a high degree, and that is just fine. On the other hand, it is precisely that abstraction that provides the opportunity for fine tuning in favor of realism. All I'm asking for is a delay - Casevac has a delay in game, when a soldier goes down and is not dead on the spot, sometimes it takes up to 2 minutes for another soldier to administer buddy aid. I take this time to represent the time it takes the aiding soldier to drag the injured man to a safer place (even though this is not modeled graphically, which is fine), and administer immediate first aid to stabilize his condition and make him comfortable, as well as grab his ammo and possibly his weapon if needed. In reality, of course things would be different, someone would have to carry the wounded man back away from the fighting and place him in someone else's hands who could take care of him. Whatever. At least there is a delay, and that delay affects the entire unit giving buddy aid (since if you move them, buddy aid stops). While not realistic, this is a middle ground that gives some disadvantage to the player while counteracting it with the advantage of possibly saving a life.

Ammo sharing, on the contrary, offers a great big advantage (even an unrealistic one), without penalizing the player noticeably. Heck, I could use the crew of my Fennek to resupply my GILL teams with missiles by just letting him get in and out of his vehicle every 2 minutes. It's the immediateness of the ammo sharing that really bothers me. I wouldn't mind the unrealistic range if there was a time delay to compensate. By the same logic, buddy aid should be a "touch" objective...

[akd]

That brings up another apparent bug I think I forgot to post: the Gill team lists a pack-up time of (I think) 20 secs, but looks to me like they are able to move instantly. Their setup time may also be longer than that listed, but haven't tested that.

[Alan8325]

That brings up another apparent bug I think I forgot to post: the Gill team lists a pack-up time of (I think) 20 secs, but looks to me like they are able to move instantly. Their setup time may also be longer than that listed, but haven't tested that.

I would disagree with making the deploy or pack-up times for Gill longer. IMO it should be roughly equivalent in capability to Javelin, which is already much more mobile in-game than Gill. Gill accuracy definitely needs tweaking for the better, as has already been stated.

[akd]

I would disagree with making the deploy or pack-up times for Gill longer. IMO it should be roughly equivalent in capability to Javelin, which is already much more mobile in-game than Gill. Gill accuracy definitely needs tweaking for the better, as has already been stated.

Let me clarify: the Gill information panel states a pack-up time of 20 secs, but the actual pack-up time is zero. As long as it has a deployed tripod, there should be some sort of pack-up time. Also didn't say the deploy time should be longer. I said it seemed longer than the panel time listed.

[Paper Tiger]

M3 of the German Campaign Ali Bab says TOD is night in the Briefing. "The Moon is Full".

With a Minor Defeat in M2, the setup phase was night. I quit out and loaded up M2 again and got a total victory, but now the sun is out. Not sure if this is intended upon a victory in M2 to go to M3.

That's how it's meant to be . Lose mission 2 and it takes you longer to get to Al Bab than planned.

[Alan8325]

Let me clarify: the Gill information panel states a pack-up time of 20 secs, but the actual pack-up time is zero. As long as it has a deployed tripod, there should be some sort of pack-up time. Also didn't say the deploy time should be longer. I said it seemed longer than the panel time listed.

Ah ok. Isn't it possible for some deployed weapons with tripods and all to be instantly picked up and moved as one package in an emergency though? For example, if the firing position is discovered and fired upon by the enemy, I would think the team could pick everything up and move it down a floor or back a few dozen meters before dismantling, if needed. IIRC this was modeled in-game with MMGs, but I could be mistaken.

It is kinda confusing about the stated set-up and pack-up times though. The Javelin panel even states a 30sec pack-up time.

[c3k]

My memory may be faulty, but I believe there was a discussion that for short moves some weapons do NOT need to be dismantled. Don't ask me how short it needs to be, but I _think_ that may account for what you're seeing regarding instantaneous moves by setup weapons.

Ken

[Jonny(FGM)]

My memory may be faulty, but I believe there was a discussion that for short moves some weapons do NOT need to be dismantled.

I believe that is stated in the manual somewhere, can't really be bothered to go find it though

[Dietrich]

At least a couple times I've had a dismounted Marine TOW team pack up and mount up its Humvee when the vehicle was within about 20 meters away.

The only times I've used Gills thus far have been when their Fenneks were similarly close by, and the Gill teams went from deployed to hurrying back to the vehicles within 10 seconds.

[akd]

My memory may be faulty, but I believe there was a discussion that for short moves some weapons do NOT need to be dismantled. Don't ask me how short it needs to be, but I _think_ that may account for what you're seeing regarding instantaneous moves by setup weapons.

Ken

Move distance/complexity/speed does not seem to matter.

[Waaarg]

That's how it's meant to be . Lose mission 2 and it takes you longer to get to Al Bab than planned.

Ahhh well, the briefing indicates the moon is out =)

[Allan Wotherspoon]

I first noticed this back when the UK module came out and I have now seen it in the NATO module. When given an area fire order, the UK and GE automatic grenade launchers never seem to fire. The only way I have been able to get them to fire is at an identified target, thus they can never be used for suppression against suspected targets. Has anyone else noticed this?

[Praetori]

I first noticed this back when the UK module came out and I have now seen it in the NATO module. When given an area fire order, the UK and GE automatic grenade launchers never seem to fire. The only way I have been able to get them to fire is at an identified target, thus they can never be used for suppression against suspected targets. Has anyone else noticed this?

That's because Germans and Brits aren't as triggerhappy as their North American counterparts.

[stikkypixie]

I first noticed this back when the UK module came out and I have now seen it in the NATO module. When given an area fire order, the UK and GE automatic grenade launchers never seem to fire. The only way I have been able to get them to fire is at an identified target, thus they can never be used for suppression against suspected targets. Has anyone else noticed this?

Are you talking about the automatic grenade launcher mounted on the jeeps? Because it works fine with me.