Killing bunkers with squad weapons only

[Erwin]

Ok, after some trial and error, I think I may have mastered bunker killing when all you can use are (Brits) squad weapons. (Maybe US troops have an easier time?)

This was required in the excellent Royal Mud Marines scenario - in which one has to KO bunkers that are only visible at very close range in woods. First, what does NOT work is attempting to use engineers' demo charges and the BLAST command. Bunkers are not buildings apparently.

Also, when ordered to target the bunker, squads use small arms and 40mm grenades primarily. I may have seen a missile or two at most - and even then I think it was an AT missile, and NOT a LASM. So, it appears that the bunker is treated more like a vehicle.

My technique was to use 4-6 teams firing at the surrounded bunker from all angles, and at close range (0-15m). This seems to suppress the bunker - and this is essential so that there is no effective enemy fire from the bunker (which can be quite lethal). The bunker starts taking casualties and after a couple turns it is KO'd.

Not exactly realistic, but hey...

If anyone has a better tactic, plz post.

[Ryujin]

The game does see mto consider it a vehicle, so will get some odd behavior. Also being reinforced concrete, I'm not sure a LASM will work unless it gets in the slit.

Snipers work well (just don't not too far away, the rounds will arc too much and hit the roof most of the time). As you mentioned, plain old rifle/40mm fire at short range will also go into the slit too. Hand grenades don't seem to be as effective as I think they should be.

Really unless you have something big enough to flatten it, it's just about putting accurate fire through the vision slit as there is no good way to assault it modeled in the game (charges/grenades don't seem effective, so you have to get out in front of the bunker to take it out with small arms or 40mm, which makes it tougher than it should be).

[LongLeftFlank]

Hmm, I've had Uncons successfully hand grenade bunkers on a regular basis by approaching them from the sides (i.e. barely within LOS of the units inside). I agree you don't get anything by grenading the blind side, but that would make sense wouldn't it? You need to get the nade (or at least the blast) into the apertures.

Good news is that since the bunker is a vehicle, "broken" infantry "passengers" will generally abandon it.

[Jonny(FGM)]

I think the main problem is, due to the action square system it's not possible to model hugging the side of the bunker and 2 soldiers either side just quickly pop round and throw a grenade in.

I remember bunkers in CMx1 were a bit of a pain too.

[Alan8325]

I think bunkers just didn't get a great share of modeling time for CMSF because they wouldn't play a huge role in a war like the one depicted and the bunkers that do get in the way would usually be bombed or hit from a distance with tanks or ATGMs. When attacked in this manner their "vehicle" status works OK for the most part.

They should be getting an overhaul for CM:N though. Close range bunker clearing would have happened more often in WWII.

[SlapHappy]

I think we're (unfortunately) going to go into the CM:N era without any type of close quarters combat detailed modeling. As Johnny points out, it simply isn't worked properly into the action point system. You could say the same thing about a lot of other possible tactics/maneuvers.

A shame really. I feel BFC needs to start addressing animations and AI for these types of situations. Anything that seems to require additional animations seems to be anathema to the developers, however.

[Jonny(FGM)]

I'm pretty sure we're going to get CQC modelled in CM:N (i'm sure it has been mentioned in a bone somewhere) bayonets n all, but i think the amount of work it would take to model the multitude of ways in which you can take out a bunker and how often bunkers actually had to be taken out doesn't really make it worth it.

I for one would take bayonets over grenades through the firing slit.

[Ryujin]

Well, it would be nice if it was handled like a very strong building of sorts, that you could throw grenades into or storm. I have a feeling that they are using the vehicle style for ease of coding, especially for fog of war. With "hidden" trenches and everything now, maybe they might be able to address the bunkers. Still might make integrating a MG into the bunker tricky.

Mainly so they can be attacked from the back (I don't think most bunkers of the size shown have big tough locking doors on the back), I want to at least be able to grenade it from the back.

(speaking of hidden trenches.... mortar/AT gun emplacements would be nice, maybe with the automatic digging in like in CMx1 and for the scrapes in CMSF)

[Muddy boots]

Apparently the average German foxhole in the Normandy fighting was built strongly enough so that a bunker might be the most realistic means of portrayal in CM:N, and so the problem of overcoming one was not so rare. Mainly it was done by grenades at close range or smacking an anti-tank round into the rear as a means of persuading the occupants to surrender, but we are forgetting the most effective method, which worked every time and which would be quite amazing if it was used in CM:N...*voice trembles with child-like excitement*....the flamethrower

[Alan8325]

I think the main problem is, due to the action square system it's not possible to model hugging the side of the bunker and 2 soldiers either side just quickly pop round and throw a grenade in.

I remember bunkers in CMx1 were a bit of a pain too.

Even with the action spot system, soldiers can already follow trenches and gullies that only take up a fraction of the action spot. Even the little, barely noticeable gullies on the sides of gravel roads in CMSF are followed by troops. The system should be able to be modified for operations around buildings and bunkers. Bunkers aside, I've had some instances where I'd like a squad to run into a building along the shortest distance to the doorway, but they end up running out into the street first, getting exposed. Do they have to "tag" the center of the action spot or something?