Sniper testing : 1800 m shot

[Fūrinkazan]

Hi all,

I'm finishing a little sniper guide for the game and i hope to publish it this week-end. It will be a pdf and you will find a test of all the sniper rifles in the game with screenshots.

I can now give you an useful info that i discovered about spotting.

I wanted to see if it was possible to hit a target at more than 1500 m with the M82A3 .50 caliber. I thought it would be easier with a slow target and i ordered the Syrians troops to move at low speed ("I" shortcut) instead of running.

I was surprised to see that snipers "only" spotted at 1500 m.

When Syrians were running they were spotted at about 1850 m.

There is 300 m spotting difference between running or moving troops.

I did the test twice to be sure.

I decided to make the Syrians run at about 1800 m of the snipers. They were spotted and i had a successful shot at about 1830 m !

You can see it, view from each side :

http://s1012.photobucket.com/albums/af249/furinkazan7/?action=view&current=1800MSHOT.jpg

http://s1012.photobucket.com/albums/af249/furinkazan7/?action=view&current=1800MSHOT2.jpg

I wanted to do a comparison test at night and i started with Syrians special forces equipped with svd. I found that they didn't see anything at night. They have the night vision icon but it doesn't seem to work. Other Syrians troops (HQ, other infantry) could see at more than 600 m but not the sniper. So i believe that there is a bug here.

In the game manual, i saw that the RPK can only fire full-auto only and so the RPK-74 i think. During a 600 m testing with an hq squad, i saw an rpk-74 shooting single shots (i wanted to test the sniper of the group) so, if this weapon is like the RPK, full-auto only, there is maybe also a problem here.

Another question : if the RPK-74 has a 500 m useful range, why doesn't it shoot short bursts ?

[Alex]

Maybe it's not a bug with syrian SF snipers. Looks like syrian snipers have NSPU-1 (1st gen.) scope and it can see some thing about 300m, I think so, because SF sniper not blind, they just see not so far. Interesting, that you right and other SF units have better NV and can see at 600m.

RPK-74 it's just AK with long barrel, and it hard to call real MG.

[Fūrinkazan]

Thanks for the info Alex.

You were right. I did a test in the same conditions and the snipers spotted at 200 m max. The strange thing is that i had a company hq that spotted at 730 m .

So it seems they have different NV than snipers.

On this link http://www.snipercentral.com/svd.htm i found the two scopes available for svd :

NSP-3: 2.7x, 7 degree field of view range of approx 300 yds (274 m)

PGN-1: 3.4x, 5.7 degree field of view range of 400-500 yd (350/450 m)

So maybe they have the NSP-3.

i also did at night test with the M110 an i had devastating results on syrians at more than 500 m. 3 hits between 700/600m and 17 between 500/400m on a group of 30 men. It seems that this rifle is equipped with The AN/PVS-14 Monocular Night Vision Device and that it has a range of detection of 350 m and range of recognition of 300 m. If i'm not wrong, that's a huge difference with the game.

I will try to test the detection of the other rifles to see if there is a difference, but it's hard to find real life detection range for all the rifles and to find what kind of night vision device all the troops have.

I agree that RPK is not an mg, but it is considered as a light machine gun, and the range is about 500 m and i think that it should shoot short bursts like in this video because it seems it's a full-auto only weapon, so no single shot :

I thought that at 500/600 m it would shoot 3/5 bullets bursts instead of one single shot as i've seen.

[Jonny(FGM)]

The british sniper rifle (i forget the name right now) is pretty devestating too, backed up by real life experience, in fact not so long enough a british sniper set a new record for longest confirmed kill

http://www.theblogofrecord.com/2010/05/02/sharpshooting-record-sniper-kill-from-mile-and-half-away-2475-meters-1-54-miles/

I'm developing a night scenario (midnight, doesn't appear to be much moon so it's pitch black) and the british snipers seemed to be able to spot out to about 500m (i can't remember the actual distances, but it wasn't further than that)

Are the ranges given for the SVD scopes just at night?

[Moon]

Alex;1197754]Maybe it's not a bug with syrian SF snipers. Looks like syrian snipers have NSPU-1 (1st gen.) scope and it can see some thing about 300m,

Good luck with seeing anything at 300m with a Gen-1 scope! You'd need a VERY powerful IR illuminator in order to be able to see that far; or a completely clear full moon night with just the right atmospheric conditions. I used to work for a night vision scope manufacturer :-)

Martin

[MikeyD]

Wow, you actually got a 1800m sniper kill in CMSF. All I can say is... Wow. :eek:

[Alex]

Good luck with seeing anything at 300m with a Gen-1 scope! You'd need a VERY powerful IR illuminator in order to be able to see that far; or a completely clear full moon night with just the right atmospheric conditions. I used to work for a night vision scope manufacturer :-)

Martin

Heh... NSPU-1 it's not clear 1st gen. night scope, it's closer to 2nd gen, I don't know, how it say at english, but it have three stages of strengthening of light!!!

it's photos from NSPU-1

http://www.ak-info.ru/joomla/index.php/devices/9-optics/28-nspuopis

http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/95/207050.html

this photos did at clear night without moon

So has you can see, NSPU-1 it's not so bad NVD.

But Martin can you confirm, that Syrian SF snipers have NSPU-1 scope, or what?

---

Bey the way Fūrinkazan great shot!!!

[George MC]

The british sniper rifle (i forget the name right now) is pretty devestating too, backed up by real life experience, in fact not so long enough a british sniper set a new record for longest confirmed kill

http://www.theblogofrecord.com/2010/05/02/sharpshooting-record-sniper-kill-from-mile-and-half-away-2475-meters-1-54-miles/

I'm developing a night scenario (midnight, doesn't appear to be much moon so it's pitch black) and the british snipers seemed to be able to spot out to about 500m (i can't remember the actual distances, but it wasn't further than that)

Are the ranges given for the SVD scopes just at night?

One of my mates is an ex Marine sniper. I sent him the link about that reported 1800m kill and he was surpsied by it. He then forwarded it to some of his sniper mates some of whom are still serving and they all reckoned given the kit the guy was using that the kill claim was dubious. As he said at the end of the day there are only two of you who know the shooter and the spotter. He was saying it is potentially easy to big claims up. You could also add the 'propaganda' factor. Snipers are one of the elements the Taliban particularly fear. FWIW he told me about one of his mates who missed a Taliban spotter by about 50cm - the guy was peeking over a wall spotting for some mortars, the shooter took the shot at around 1500m and just missed with the shot hitting the wall 50cm below where the Taliban guy was peeking over the wall . The Taliban guy popped his head back down and the mortars ceased!

[Jonny(FGM)]

It had been reported as a "confirmed" kill, although coming to think about it the only way they could really confirm it would be to perform an autopsy on the talibs right?

[Alex]

Also I found some comparison photos NSPU-1 and modern civilian 1st gen. NVD "ЗЕНИТ НВ-100"

here you are:

moon night

70m

- ЗЕНИТ

- NSPU-1

300m

- ЗЕНИТ

- NSPU-1

link on rus - http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/10/242281.html

[Fūrinkazan]

Thanks to all for these informations and interest.

To MikeyD :

i did a lot of sniper testing and i thought that it was impossible to hit a target at more than 1500 m with the .50 cal rifle but i was wrong. First, walking troops are spotted at a shorter distance (about 1500 m) and a faster move order made them spotted at about 1850 m ( for U.S., U.K. and Syrians snipers) So if you let the time to the sniper to aim, you have a chance to hit the target. That was in the best conditions of visibilty. I have seen many targets hit at about 1 500 m. But it's harder when Syrians were crawling because you loose the visual contact.

I could not spot infantry at more than 1850 m in the game, so i don't know if it's possible to spot at longer distance.

The world record is at 2 475 m by Corporal of Horse (CoH) Craig Harrison with a L115A3 Long Range Rifle. It took 9 shoots to estimate the distance and the first shot on target was deadly. It seems that he shot two lmg servants during this action.

Before the record was 2 430 m for Corporal Rob Furlong

I don't know if it's propaganda but it seems that the L115A3 is quiet accurate at more than 1 500 m but you have to be lucky.

In the game do not expect more than 1300 m (my record with this rifle) since snipers don't shoot at higher distance even when ordered to . That's not the case with the .50 cal .

I would like to share the results of my testing and i think i will have finish the document this week-end.

You will find a few real life world records, the characteristics of the rifles (range etc.) and screenshots of the action.

First, a battlefield view with all the targets and distance, then what i called the harassment zone, and the lethal zone of all the rifles.

I did a chart with the number of targets hit, the average by rifle, and the range. I tested all the rifles the same way to compare. You will find the details, but this takes a long time to prepare everything.

I did also anti-material tests against vehicules.

By the way, the sniper who did the 1 800 m shot in the game was a "only" a veteran.

[Alex]

Russian non-combat shooting at 2300m by SVL.408 rifle

[Fūrinkazan]

Alex,

I've just seen the video and i was astonished. I watched the english version, because unfortunatly i can't read or speak russian.

I didn't know the Lobaev SVL sniper rifle since it's not in the game, i did no research on it.

The .408 Chey Tac cartridge seems to have a 2 400 m +effective range, more than .50 BMG : 1 500 / 2 000 m and the .338 Lapua Magnum : 1 300 1 600 m.

The rifle seems to be effective at 2 200 m with selected ammos.

I don't know at what altitude this test was done but it seems that for the two world records it was 1 000 m and about 2 000 m and the shots were aided by the ambient air density.

On the video it doesn't seem to difficult to hit a target at more than 2 000 m, but of course this is not a combat situation. But, if everything is true , this may prove that very long sniper shots are possible and maybe not propaganda. And that's not far from the world records.

I would have like to make longer shots in the game, but due to spotting distance of infantry it was impossible.

As i said, i tried to make Syrians walk to have easy targets but at more than about 1 600 m my snipers could not see them.

It's strange. Why running men are spotted at longer range, and why can't we spot infantry at more than 1 900 m in the game ?:confused:

I would like to know what is the maximum distance you can spot a walking man in the best conditions.

When i started testing, i tried to kill a tank commander at 2 500 m. He was spotted in is turret, and snipers started to shot but i had no success at that time. If they were able to see a man in is turret at that distance, they couldn't spot infantry near the tank, if i remember well.

There are a few things that i think are incorrect in the game concerning snipers.

But you will make your opinion by yourself when you'll see the screenshots i've made.

[Alan8325]

Russian non-combat shooting at 2300m by SVL.408 rifle

Nice video! Do you know if the Russian military is increasingly using weapons and equipment from more private companies like Tsar-Cannon Ltd with the SVL rifle?

[Alex]

2 Fūrinkazan

I post this video to show that shot at 2000m not fantasy.

Waiting your work.

2 Alan8325

No, militarys not use weapon like this, they use SVD (as main), SV-98 (some SF), KSVK 12.7, OSV-96/B-94 12.7, VSS.

Tsar-cannon rifles used by very special forces (FSB, FSO)

[Fūrinkazan]

I have uploaded my file on the repository today, and hope it will be published.

I wanted to do it yesterday, but i suffer of migraine and all i could do was testing my bed.

The file is called snipers, it's a pdf file and it contains all the screens and comparison for the rifles, a test against vehicles (tank, BRDM, BMP-1, civilians)

I give my opinion on spotting on the game and rifles and there are a few advices for using snipers.

Hope you'll find it useful.

2 Alex, when i said i was astonished, it's not because i thought that the video was fantasy or fake, but because it seems "easy" for them to hit at 2300 m.

From what i've been reading, targeting at more than 2 000 m is difficult and can only be done in the best conditions.

[Alex]

2 Fūrinkazan

I mean that not you don't believe me, and for all, that it's real.

GREAT WORK!!! Thank you

P.S. Maybe should put rifle images and caliber, for every part.

[Fūrinkazan]

Alex, i'm glad that you enjoy my work and i hope that you'll find it useful.

I wanted to put images and more details about all the rifles but the project was getting bigger and i didn't want to put details that would be boring for the reader. So, you have an idea of real life and you can compare with the game and find it accurate or not.

First i only wanted to show screens and results, then i said why not testing against vehicles, and why not testing the sniper in HQ team etc...

I even made a few videos. I had one with a taxi cab taking four shots of M107 .50 in the engine at 100 m without any problem (the indicator of the engine state was still a big green cross). But the video was to big and i didn't have the time to compress it and keep the quality.

Once you start, it's sometimes hard to find a limit, and all this takes a lot of time.

I will try to update the file with the snipers in the NATO module if people are interested.

I had multiple goals when i started this :

First, share informations, talk about tactics (snipers, tanks, infantry whatever..) and have the opinion of other players.

Then maybe help new players.

Talk about the things i think are not correct in the game (maybe i'm wrong about some points)

And maybe have an answer or opinion of the developers about few things that bother me in the game.

For exemple, many players had the problem with Javelin/RPG/Snipers teams destroyed because the security member opened fire. You target a tank, and the other guy shoots infantry then "boom !" you'are dead. The same about changing position, the Javelin or RPG killed while reloading. Frustrating.

That's not a bug, but i think that the behaviour of infantry should be changed in some case. Or maybe change things about target orders.

I think it's better to convince that to impose your opinion.

Maybe it's possible to show by this way to those who are still playing CM1 that this game is great and fun.

Now that i'm better with screenshots and video, i would like to show things about machine guns (placement, the best way to use them in the game) and maybe tank formations and deployment.

I'm a WW2 fan, and i've been reading books like "Panzer tactics" by Wolfgang Schneider. I think it could be fun and useful to see if real life tactics can be reproduced in the game.

Once, in a QB with Syrians i had 9 T72 against 3 challengers. I couldn't beat them. So i remembered that Schneider in the book recommands 100 m of spacing between tanks. Using this tactics, i destroyed the Challengers loosing only one tank, certainly because wide formations allow to hit the ennemy not straight in his frontal arc but a little from the flank (but maybe i was lucky).

Screens or vids of tank formations and tactics may help those who don't like to play modern warfare.

Maybe having a place were we could put videos about tactics or tips on playing the game should be a good idea.

so, i can't promise, because of the time it takes, but i will try to make a few vids and post them to have opinions of other players.

[Jonny(FGM)]

For exemple, many players had the problem with Javelin/RPG/Snipers teams destroyed because the security member opened fire.

I've never had this problem, but then again i never use the target order for the jav/snipers, perhaps that's your problem

[Fūrinkazan]

2 Jonny(FGM)

I had the case last week with two Syrians sniper teams against Stryker infantry.

No target order for the snipers, at about 200/250 m, the sniper started to shoot at infantry (2 or 3 shots) and then, i was thinking like you : no target = no security team shooting. But a few seconds later, he opened fire and was killed by a grenade launcher. The problem is that you can't predict if he will fire or not especially at short range.

During my testing with snipers, one group of Syrians came as close as 150/200 m of the snipers and nobody opened fire on them.

For Javelin and RPG, i think it depends of range and if there is infantry or not.

If you use a target order to destroy a tank, the other man may shoot at infantry and the time the javelin is targeting, you are spotted. I saw one shooting an AT-4 before the jav was ready and they were both eliminated by the tank.

Maybe you are right, and i will try to use more fire arcs to see what happens.

When i said that many players had the problem, it's because if i remember well there was a thread about this. For RPG, as they shoot immediatly, this doesn't give the time to the other man to open fire. But if the RPG shooter has to change position before shooting or if he is reloading ...

It's more about a lack of control.

If i remember, on the other thread, some players wanted separate cover arcs, on for infantry, the second for targeting vehicles to avoid the problem.

If i can take screens while playing, i will show you. For me it happens in urban combat, or when ambushing.

[Jonny(FGM)]

oh i wasn't denying that other players have had problems with this, i've read many other players talking about this issue. Just there seems to be something about me or my style of play that stops this happening.

Probably for a start with the snipers if enemy units are within the security elements weapon range then something has gone wrong . . .

[Fūrinkazan]

Maybe it depends if you play the game in real time or not. I know that some people don't give fire order except for area shooting. Some give fire arcs, and certainly other want to control everything.

I play real time and use cover arcs depending on situation.

It's funny how the game experience and "feeling" can vary between players.

I have no problem with your opinion. I find interesting that you don't have this problem and you can disagree with me or express another point of view, i will never be upset if someone disagree with me.

It's always interesting to exchange opinions. If something in the game is a problem for me, it doesn't mean that it is the case for the majority of the community.

In fact, i'm satisfied with the game, and i hope things will get better with the future modules, but i feel a few things are frustrating.

For exemple i think we have to much infos on enemy units in the iron mode, or i think that infantry behaviour under fire maybe changed in some situations, a few things about tanks.

But that's only my point of view....

[Jonny(FGM)]

Oh yes, i'm extremely satisfied with the game how it is, it never stops amazing me which is why when some of the simple stuff goes wrong it really frustrates me

It may well be the difference between RT and WEGO, i'm a die-hard WEGO player; neither me or my PC can handle RT. Like i said, im not disagreeing with you here, just saying I never see it lol, i've never seen a panda (for example) but i know they exist ; )

it's probably just the difference in how we use them, not just the difference between RT and WEGO but something more fundamental. For me snipers are long range units and should be at least a few hundred meters away from the nearest enemy inf unit.

having said that in creating a scen at night the 2 man brit snipers seemed to switch to their SA-80s at about the right time. But perhaps this is just different expections of what is "about right"

[Sheppy]

this is amazing! can you please tell me what move order you had to get spotting at 1500? was it quick or move?

[Fūrinkazan]

2 Jonny(FGM)

Totally agree with you, i try to have a minimum range of 300 m for snipers, and i plan alternative position so i can move them fast when they are spotted.

I've been reading on wiki during my search for the test that military snipers used to have a minium range of 300 m but i also read an article about the snipers of 82nd airborne in Bagdad the "widow makers" (very interesting, with details on rifles, optics for spotter etc..) and another about U.S. snipers in Irak and it seems that they rarely engage at more than 300 m the longest range was 550 reported one of them. But that's against insurgent and no exactly the same situation you'll find in the game.

They used the M24 SWS and M14 rifles.

With the AN/PVS 10 sniper scope it seems that they could engage at night at 600 m.

Few more infos :

M24 SWS can engage up to 1 000 m, M 110 1 000 m with faster rate of fire (i think that's the case in the game), the M107 "normal" range in counter sniping is 2 000 m.

One thing in found interesting when looking at the test i have made is that the M 107 can use Those cartridges :

M33 AP, M17 tracer, M8 AP incendiary and the M962 SLAP (saboted light armor piercing). They could engage targets hidden behind walls, tree, cars or inside lightly armored vehicles and even in certain cases through concrete (all those informations reported by U.S. soldiers in the two articles.)

That's something that i found a little bit disappointing about M107 in the game. I'm not sure that the anti-materiel effect of this rifle is well reproduced in the game, maybe because of the type of cartridge.

To go back to the game i cannot go back to Wego. I played a lot of RTS and i think that i have too much control in Wego. So, i try to plan everything before the battle, i almost never use the pause to give orders. I like when i loose the control, when tanks get bogged, troops refuse to obey my orders .... I feel more "in" the battle, when i must react in emergency, than when i have the time, so i try to have alternative plans or solutions, a reserve or troops etc...

But there are no better way to play the game. When CMBO came out i really enjoyed the wego system. A great advance in comparison of older wargames.